What is the average content of the Czech wolfdog?

hanninadina · 01-10-2011, 10:32

Tupa, what do you mean, mutation was runing earlier and that is why you think they are more far away from the wolf? Wow, this opinion is the first time I read. But why do you for example Malamutes have 43 ways to express themselves, but a german shepard has only 12? Mimik in their face body, I mean. And why does a Basenji gets only 1 time a year in heat???

I would say you are completely wrong. Better you read this paper http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture08837.html . The main author Prof. Dr. Bob Wayne sent it to me, if anyone wants a pdf copy please mail me, I will send [email protected] . I couldnot find the whole article without paying.

Yuko, do you know Monika Soukupova, breeder z Molu Es of ccsw for 25 years? She is special judge, dog trainer pp. She told me last year during world dog show, that the stud book is still open. And so far I know the clubs in each countries are allowed to cross in a wolf, if they can expalin why it would be necessary for the breed.

Christian

yukidomari · 01-10-2011, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Yuko, do you know Monika Soukupova, breeder z Molu Es of ccsw for 25 years? She is special judge, dog trainer pp. She told me last year during world dog show, that the stud book is still open. And so far I know the clubs in each countries are allowed to cross in a wolf, if they can expalin why it would be necessary for the breed.

Christian

Hi, thanks for your answer. I am familiar with the name you mentioned. But what you describe - clubs being able to outcross with consensus - is not an ' open stud book', at least, not how the term is used in the USA. EVERY national KC recognized breed club of any breed in the US can vote to accept outcrosses, essentially it means no breed has a closed stud book.

Open stud book as I understand means the KC accepts for registration dogs of unknown back ground, usually by phenotype, from a club or anyone without many exceptions. Usually it occurs at the foundation years of a breed.

By the way, the way you explain it, are clubs are ONLY allowed to cross in wolves as an outcross option?

hanninadina · 01-10-2011, 11:27

I am not sure, if I understand you right - maybe language barrier -, but in germany for example, I could go with a from me bred for example F 1 czech wolfdog to be phenotyped. The german akc = vdh would give me register papers and I would be allowed to do shows. I am not sure in that moment, if I could use him immediateley as stud dog, but so far I know under certain circumstances I am allowed if taking a female with normal pedigree.

In germany the csw clubs are not recognized from VDH. It means to get the permission for breeding it will do the german akc. In the french herding dogs Briard for example the two german clubs are allowed to give permission. The vdh wants to have their hand on the breed. The two clubs are trying for many years to get the permisson. So in case of germany the vdh must allow. So far I remember the club must always talk to the country FCI club (means akc, vdh, enci pp.) to get permission to cross in for example a wolf.

In germany they do hybrid breeding with Eurasier. They cross in Samoyed. this dogs are called hybrid as well. And this went with permission of club and vdh.

Christian

michaelundinaeichhorn · 01-10-2011, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Open stud book as I understand means the KC accepts for registration dogs of unknown back ground, usually by phenotype, from a club or anyone without many exceptions. Usually it occurs at the foundation years of a breed.

By the way, the way you explain it, are clubs are ONLY allowed to cross in wolves as an outcross option?

Hello,

the Slowakian Club, who has as we all know the patronat for the breed, decided some time ago in response to Mutara and other illegal "outcrosses" not to accept any dog that is registered. As far as I know this decision hasn´t changed.
The VDH (German KC) decided in agreement with both German Clubs to give registry pedigrees in future only for show purposes. Pedigrees for breeding will only be given in special cases like DNA-proofed offspring of FCI parents. The reason for this decision have been registered dogs with shepherd parentage, hybrids out of other countries etc.
Being the FCI what it is this has not much influence on other countries but nonetheless is not an open stud book.

Ina

tupacs2legs · 02-10-2011, 03:06

Yes basenji's only come in to season once a year,but it is not normal for the siberian to do so,and some giant/very large breeds only come into season once a year.

Tassle · 02-10-2011, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

Yes basenji's only come in to season once a year,but it is not normal for the siberian to do so,and some giant/very large breeds only come into season once a year.

.....so do some Border collies!!

02-10-2011, 18:01

I wasn't going to reply because this topic has come up before, but I can't help myself!

When you're looking at dogs as being related to wolves, you can't just look at reproduction as a deciding factor. It's one trait out of billions that are related to genetics. They've done studies of the dog genome to determine relationship to wolves and have found that, despite existing for longer as a whole, most ancient breeds are actually closer related to wolves. It makes sense if you think about how the dog's were produced. Ancient breeds developed somewhat naturally where dogs created more recently have had a lot more human intervention. It stands to reason that this human selection would create dogs that are genetically further from their ancestors.

As far percentages go, it's already been explained really well, but since genetics are random, you might get a "20% wolfdog" and "80% wolfdog" out of a litter produced of a pure wolf and a dog. When it comes to breeding, then, if you think about the traits you breed towards are the more dog-like ones, you more quickly breed away from the wolf genetics despite the number of generations.

Here's a page that explains it well, and shows actual examples:
http://wolfpark.org/ccpage3.shtml

01-10-2011, 10:32	#1
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Tupa, what do you mean, mutation was runing earlier and that is why you think they are more far away from the wolf? Wow, this opinion is the first time I read. But why do you for example Malamutes have 43 ways to express themselves, but a german shepard has only 12? Mimik in their face body, I mean. And why does a Basenji gets only 1 time a year in heat??? I would say you are completely wrong. Better you read this paper http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture08837.html . The main author Prof. Dr. Bob Wayne sent it to me, if anyone wants a pdf copy please mail me, I will send [email protected] . I couldnot find the whole article without paying. Yuko, do you know Monika Soukupova, breeder z Molu Es of ccsw for 25 years? She is special judge, dog trainer pp. She told me last year during world dog show, that the stud book is still open. And so far I know the clubs in each countries are allowed to cross in a wolf, if they can expalin why it would be necessary for the breed. Christian

01-10-2011, 11:27	#3
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	I am not sure, if I understand you right - maybe language barrier -, but in germany for example, I could go with a from me bred for example F 1 czech wolfdog to be phenotyped. The german akc = vdh would give me register papers and I would be allowed to do shows. I am not sure in that moment, if I could use him immediateley as stud dog, but so far I know under certain circumstances I am allowed if taking a female with normal pedigree. In germany the csw clubs are not recognized from VDH. It means to get the permission for breeding it will do the german akc. In the french herding dogs Briard for example the two german clubs are allowed to give permission. The vdh wants to have their hand on the breed. The two clubs are trying for many years to get the permisson. So in case of germany the vdh must allow. So far I remember the club must always talk to the country FCI club (means akc, vdh, enci pp.) to get permission to cross in for example a wolf. In germany they do hybrid breeding with Eurasier. They cross in Samoyed. this dogs are called hybrid as well. And this went with permission of club and vdh. Christian

02-10-2011, 03:06	#5
tupacs2legs rookie Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: london Posts: 320	Yes basenji's only come in to season once a year,but it is not normal for the siberian to do so,and some giant/very large breeds only come into season once a year.

02-10-2011, 18:01	#7
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	I wasn't going to reply because this topic has come up before, but I can't help myself! When you're looking at dogs as being related to wolves, you can't just look at reproduction as a deciding factor. It's one trait out of billions that are related to genetics. They've done studies of the dog genome to determine relationship to wolves and have found that, despite existing for longer as a whole, most ancient breeds are actually closer related to wolves. It makes sense if you think about how the dog's were produced. Ancient breeds developed somewhat naturally where dogs created more recently have had a lot more human intervention. It stands to reason that this human selection would create dogs that are genetically further from their ancestors. As far percentages go, it's already been explained really well, but since genetics are random, you might get a "20% wolfdog" and "80% wolfdog" out of a litter produced of a pure wolf and a dog. When it comes to breeding, then, if you think about the traits you breed towards are the more dog-like ones, you more quickly breed away from the wolf genetics despite the number of generations. Here's a page that explains it well, and shows actual examples: http://wolfpark.org/ccpage3.shtml