Cesar about Wolf-Dog Hybrids

[Jennin Lauma]

I have noticed that most Cesar fans are people who have little or no up-to-date scientific information / knowledge about the social life & communication of wolves & dogs, and what has been learned about the effectiveness of different training ideologies & methods.

Everyone who has been following his/her time in canine science aswell as the studies about the learning process in different mammals, know exactly why Cesar's methods are out dated and harmfull, and today completely lack scientific base, -or in better words: is today scientifically proven to be incorrect.

For further reading I recomment people to Google "Dominance theory", and read the articles that come up.

Also here are some that I had bookmarked:

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...imal-behaviour

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose...ancemyths.aspx

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articl...s/Yin_MA09.pdf

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss..._yJC0.facebook

The wolf bilogist Dr Dave Mech talks about why the "alpha" term he himself is somewhat responsible for, is incorrect and out dated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU

[AMERICANI]

LOL... I guess I was trying to get someone to actually mention a specific alternative, rather than just tell me, "what he did was wrong". It is obvious that there are newer and more acceptable ways to get this specific dog to be helped... BTW, Thanks for the links...

[yukidomari]

If you hire a real, trained, licensed behaviorist, they wouldn't offer you a 'quick fix' and would have no reason to.

That is, unless someone prefers hiring someone so they can end up on TV.

PS., if that were my dog i would work on increasing his threshold, and not purposely push him over it knowing the limit of it already. and this dog is not 'rehabbed' as i would not trust him to behave better freely next time either... :/ Test the dog.. and if the dog will react within X feet, then stay outside of that threshold until you have been able to redirect the dog successfully and continuously, before decreasing the distance, for example. at least that's how i would approach it, based on what I see in this video, but of course nobody would give you unqualified advice without actually seeing and interacting with the dog in life.

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

PS., if that were my dog i would work on increasing his threshold, and not purposely push him over it knowing the limit of it already. and this dog is not 'rehabbed' as i would not trust him to behave better freely next time either... :/ Test the dog.. and if the dog will react within X feet, then stay outside of that threshold until you have been able to redirect the dog successfully and continuously, before decreasing the distance, for example.

that's how it is generally done, it's called "desensitization training" and its purpose is exactly to change the dog's state of mind with respect to the particular situation, by the use of counter conditioning.

The results this method gives you are final (provided you don't repeat the same mistakes), since the problem is solved in the dog's head.

The "problem" is, it takes time (weeks or even months), patience, skills and energy... Millan has to solve the situation in 10 minutes of a TV episode in order to sell his product, so he does what people generally want and expect: make the owner's life easier with a "quick and simple" method.

[AMERICANI]

Originally Posted by Fede86

that's how it is generally done, it's called "desensitization training" and its purpose is exactly to change the dog's state of mind with respect to the particular situation, by the use of counter conditioning.

The results this method gives you are final (provided you don't repeat the same mistakes), since the problem is solved in the dog's head.

The "problem" is, it takes time (weeks or even months), patience, skills and energy... Millan has to solve the situation in 10 minutes of a TV episode in order to sell his product, so he does what people generally want and expect: make the owner's life easier with a "quick and simple" method.

Thank You!! So very much.. That is what I was looking for. This is a possible example, and I know it is just speculation, but is this similar to wht you are describing? : lets say, I have my female "X" 15' away from female "Y" (the two fight any closer!), I could sit and ignore any tension between the two until one gives and looks away and then so does the other (the situation is calm - for the moment - decreasing distance according to time and progress..) Right then, I could provide a reward to the state of mind (calm and peaceful).. and this could very well continue for months! I believe I would need assistance from someone with the same knowledge to help with the other female simultaneously, right? Both want to be boss... I think I'm tracking - please correct me if that isn't so. I fully understand about the dipshits who would rather be on TV.., and with that video, there isn't enough background to give to anyone to make a proper decision.. I do however, remember the episode where this big dog was a "Red Zone" case and would attack everything and everyone he wanted (handler/owner included)... This might be an acceptable method if the dog would be put down the following day.. Thank for your input! I have mild issues that I have been slowly working on, and I want to do everything I can to make life enjoyable for my dogs as well as achieving the behaviors I like! ie: I can now walk up and feed my dogs without them going crazy and jumping all over me! (Before, I wasn't home for a while, and my mom got knocked down and injured by one that was just happy to see her)..

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

Thank You!! So very much.. That is what I was looking for. This is a possible example, and I know it is just speculation, but is this similar to wht you are describing? : lets say, I have my female "X" 15' away from female "Y" (the two fight any closer!)

In my opinion, you can proceed with the same approach but you also must unfortunately realize there may be an limit it especially when it comes down to breeds known for tendencies to SSA et al; and that this may be a case of long-term management. it may be that the best you can accomplish is that the two dogs when supervised leave each other alone under direction, but must never be left alone together unattended. There is training and then there are genetics and you cannot make a pack of CsVs behave like a pack of beagle hounds.

I taught my CsV a solid 'leave it' when it comes to my little dogs and when he is getting to be too aggravating to them (stepping on them, punching them, etc). Course you start with 'leave it' at a distance on something not very valuable, and work your way up.

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

is this similar to wht you are describing? : lets say, I have my female "X" 15' away from female "Y" (the two fight any closer!), I could sit and ignore any tension between the two until one gives and looks away and then so does the other (the situation is calm - for the moment - decreasing distance according to time and progress..) Right then, I could provide a reward to the state of mind (calm and peaceful).. and this could very well continue for months! I believe I would need assistance from someone with the same knowledge to help with the other female simultaneously, right?

That's the basic concept. I'm no dog trainer but I would probably start from a distance that cause no tension at all, reducing it at a pace that never allows it to reach levels that cause the dogs to express the unwanted behavior (when eliminating a bad behavior you want to reduce its frequency to a minimum, so you avoid to put the dog in a position where that behavior surfaces). I guess the specifics of the method may vary depending on the dog and on the situation.

[Jennin Lauma]

Good posts Fede86 & yukidomari
You two took the words out of my mouth (I completely agree with you, and would have given the exact same answers).

When dealing with wolfdogs, unsocial behaviour (towards other canines and especially of same sex) is quite typical, and absolutely natural behaviour for a wolf.
Wolves are often concidered being pack animals, and therefore incorrectly interpret to be social animals. But the truth is that wolves live in family units, and usually the pack consists of a mother and a father and their offspring from the last couple springs untill they mature and leave the pack to find their own territory & mate.
Of course there will always be exceptions to rules and so it is in this case too; there are some reported cases of more complex wolf pack structures than described above, but those are just that; exceptions and usually occur only under special circumstances.