Demoniak de la Louve Blanche

[hanninadina]

Daiva, Demoniak is a pure csw! He is more pure than any other living csw, because he is much more close to a carpathian wolf than any other csw. Very simple.

No one needs a csw who is able to pass IPO exams! We do not need aggressiv forward going like to use their teeth csw. We need simply pet wolfdogs who are family dogs and can stay in the house with the people and do not need to put in kennels.

And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.

I wrote it several times, with people like you there would be no csw breed! Karel Hartl was an open minded person who tried a new thing - new after Mr. Saarloos.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Daiva, Demoniak is a pure csw! He is more pure than any other living csw, because he is much more close to a carpathian wolf than any other csw. Very simple.

That's not my understanding of the word 'breed' and 'pure-breed'.

A CsV is not a Carpathian wolf nor does it need to be closely related to one. It is a dog breed bred from not only Carpathian Wolves but also German Shepherd Dogs. It is a human construct, a man-made dog breed.

And though I don't think I will take any IPO exams with my dog, I still want the dog to have a temperament suitable for working and training in other things. I don't want simply a dog who can stay at home outside of kennels. There are dogs like that already of many companion and toy types.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Daiva, Demoniak is a pure csw! He is more pure than any other living csw, because he is much more close to a carpathian wolf than any other csw. Very simple.

Christian - I have no idea what did you heard about his origin but one thing I'm sure. He is not a high percentage cross of EUROPEAN WOLF. He has American blood.

Look on his offsprings:








It is obvious that there is American/Canadian blood inside. If it was a European Wolf which they used to make Demoniak then they mixed it with Husky for sure.

I saw many European Wolves and some of their crosses. NONE look like those animals... I have no idea who told you such lie but kick him...

[hanninadina]

Lol, ok ok Margo, hahaha, so I guess I was right and Skog is the father of Demoniak, hahaha.

But to be honest, if you look at the pics from Demoniak and Doz they look almost like brother and sister. Here a pic. And they look on all pics like brother and sister. And I guess, you better know than me, that Doz is a daughter from a carpathian wolf male and a csw.

Wolweryne is a son of CPouchka, who is a daughter of american wolfdog Uncas. That is why he looks in winter coat like typicla american wolfdog.

But one is for sure, Demoniak behaves, moves and looks like a F 2.

[wolfin]

ah but I very good member a wolf- dog mix in germany who was close in self and runn from a touch. This type behavior mas have your dreams wolfdog in future? for this think mas begin breed a new breed without agresive and strong CSW dogs blood with who you have a problem to control.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by wolfin

ah but I very good member a wolf- dog mix in germany who was close in self and runn from a touch. This type behavior mas have your dreams wolfdog in future? for this think mas begin breed a new breed without agresive and strong CSW dogs blood with who you have a problem to control.

Wait Daiva, I remember it now. I know what Christian means. He is right - the animal which he saw was EXTREMELY shy. But it was not your dog or any from the G-litter.

Originally Posted by wolfin

And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.

Christian, it was not F5 but F8 (or F9). I know which dog was bounded to the tree and affraid of everything - it was a male from Crying Wolf kennel.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

But one is for sure, Demoniak behaves, moves and looks like a F 2.

What does a F2 dog behave like? Because if it's anything like most F2s here, it is not suitable for living in the city and going on the bus, to restaurants, public parks, or for taking to train in tracking or detection activities. ..

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

But one is for sure, Demoniak behaves, moves and looks like a F 2.

Yes, I agree with you. When I saw him first time I was thinking that he is a VERY wolfish CsW. I was even interested in him as stud dog but... looking in the pedigree I saw that there is something really wrong. Such dog can not be born out of parents listed in the pedigree - the characteristics of Yvanka de New Flame are missing there (it was the time when people started to speak about crosses and I started to believe in it). I do not believe in miracles.

After his puppies were born I knew for sure that he has fake pedigree: the main characteristics of CsW were missing by them... Demoniak can be F1, F2, F3 or F-whatever but two things are sure: he is not a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and he is not a cross of European Wolf.

[hanninadina]

Margo, I can not go along with you when you refer to the breed standard. In germany Berger de Brie - Briard - breeders changed the behavior of briards too. In France the Briards have to attack when they will be challanged. In germany they have to be calm and are not allowed to attack!

But nobody would say, oh you people you are changing the breed standard!

In germany socity dogs must be not only pet dogs, but dogs like being out of plastic with a battery. When people want them to be dog, it is ok. But when they mostly want them to be cool and calm, they cut them down.

I do not know how to explain in english better. But it will be always a problem, if dogs go immediatly at front. Nobody here in germany want this border military dogs! And therefore animals like Demoniak are very important for the breed. And as I showed you in the picture of Doz and Demoniak, they do look like twins! Here is another one.

I do not believe, that there is any american wolfdog or wolf is in him! And by the way Franky does only own two dogs, Volos and Yarl. Wolweryne is with his son and all other dogs are not in his home. But of course I noticed the offspring of Demoniak and Doz does not look really like csw. I was wondering too. Marvellous wolfdogs, but not like csw.... Maybe that is genetics - or you are right.

[wolfin]

hanninadina

And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.

I think you mas apologize to me. This dog about who you speak not was ANY my dog. In this year I have only two CSW and this was this horible animals who not runn away but guard a my car and things. You have in mind dog from kennel from what are one your dog too.

[jefta]

hanninadina, have you been on meeting in Pozna this year?

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

I do not know how to explain in english better. But it will be always a problem, if dogs go immediatly at front. Nobody here in germany want this border military dogs!

Nobody say that Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs must be aggressive. Look on breed the standard - here is nothing about agression:

Lively, very active, capable of endurance, docile with quick reactions. Fearless and courageous. Suspicious. Shows tremendous loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile in his uses.

Now look on the last sentence - it means you can use them for many types of work. They can make great Rescue Dogs. And Germany is the best example. CsW owners from your country do not make protection work but train their dogs to track lost people. With the French crosses they would be not able to do this.
And there are many possibilities to use CsW.

You can change the way how you will "use" Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. But you can not change their character.

And there are more examples already visible. One of the most winning dogs in CZ and SK last time is a 'walking zombie'. People who are interested in breeding 'show lines" and 'sofa dogs' love him saying that he has great character - very calm and timid (he really behaves like on drugs). People who work with dogs and try to preserve the 'right' character 'hate' him because you can not do with such dog ANYTHING. He is useless as working dog. In the case of rescue work: the lost person would die because the dog will have no mood to look for somebody and if he would - the person would die because the anemic dog will need DAYS to run several kilometres.

And the same I can say about the crosses bred in France. I saw some of those dogs - some were 'zombies', some were scared like Saarloos. Only one showed bound with his owner. The rest was indifferent to everything. They were plants - not dogs.

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And therefore animals like Demoniak are very important for the breed. And as I showed you in the picture of Doz and Demoniak, they do look like twins! Here is another one.

I agree they can be important for THE breed. They can be interesting for THE American Wolfdogs or THE Indian Wolfdogs. I think also THE Saarloos Wolfhond breeders can be happy to have the possibility to use them.
But our breed do not need them. Look - Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs were made by crossing European Wolf (from the Carpathians) and German Shepherd Dog (old DDR lines). NOTHING ELSE.

What is Demoniak? A mongrel. There is a bit of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. There is also a Wolf(dog) (American? Tundra?). What else? I doubt that Frank&co. used pure American Wolf - I think they took an American Wolfdogs. And you know that American Wolfdogs consist of several breeds. Most of them unknown but in the most cases American breeders mix wolves with Huskies or Malamutes (they do not use GSD).
Do you think that our breed needs mongrels? Christian, there are many mongrels in our animals shelters. Some of them are pretty 'wolfish'. But it is not a reason to use them for mixing with CsW. Because any mix and any mongrel is just an unknown Pandora box.

Originally Posted by hanninadina

I noticed the offspring of Demoniak and Doz does not look really like csw. I was wondering too. Marvellous wolfdogs, but not like csw.... Maybe that is genetics - or you are right.

I'm right. You will see. It is the rule of genetics. Do you remeber the experiment of Konrad Lorenz who crossed Poodles and Jackals? Always the fist generation was pretty similar. First in the next generations there were diverse animals born. It is the same with France - in the first generation(s) of crosses was pretty similar to each other. Now more and more different "breeds" are visible there. We can see dogs which resemble mixes of Husky and GSD. Mixes of White Shepherd and husky. Mixes of American Wolves. Mixes of Mamamute and GSD.
Real Sodom and Gomorrah

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Daiva, Demoniak is a pure csw! He is more pure than any other living csw, because he is much more close to a carpathian wolf than any other csw. Very simple.

very simple, you not are a breed patronat, only one little man.

and it says that Czechoslovakia Wolfdog is only a dog:
u ktorého sú známe všetky generácie predkov ku 1.6.1999
(deň medzinárodného uznania plemena FCI )

English: "by whom all ancestors till 1.06.1999 are known
(it is the date of the international recognition of the breed)"

Simply said: Czechoslovakian Wolfdog can be called ONLY a dog whose all ancestors are known (and whose were registered in 1.06.1999) and come from the OFFICIAL lines.

No one needs a csw who is able to pass IPO exams! We do not need aggressiv forward going like to use their teeth csw. We need simply pet wolfdogs who are family dogs and can stay in the house with the people and do not need to put in kennels.

read a FCI standart. one thime second thime - CSW are with working trial.

And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.

you make my day ))) I remember you with cry and in runn when he want with you a speak like a guard dog. I understand this saw moore people and you now feel bad, for this - Dog say in who place is your place.

I wrote it several times, with people like you there would be no csw breed! Karel Hartl was an open minded person who tried a new thing - new after Mr. Saarloos.

oh yes, your type only want a quicker destroid this with who work people about 60 years.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

No one needs a csw who is able to pass IPO exams! We do not need aggressiv forward going like to use their teeth csw. We need simply pet wolfdogs who are family dogs and can stay in the house with the people and do not need to put in kennels.

No Christian. You can not write this. The breed is not YOUR property. And also not the property of French breeders or anybody else. NOBODY of you can say: we will change the breed!

It was created by Hartl as WORKING breed. And the character is described in the breed standard:
Lively, very active, capable of endurance, docile with quick reactions. Fearless and courageous. Suspicious. Shows tremendous loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile in his uses.

So you can ONLY breed dogs which match the standard. If you will breed other dogs (with timid, indifferent character) which are only good as sofa dogs - you will breed UNTYPICAL CsWs.

If you, or anybody else do not like this character then there is only one solution: STOP to breed CsW. Switch to Saarloos or create an own breed.

An example - if you will buy a Ferrari and you will decide that the car is "DANGEROUS" because it is TOO FAST. And you will change the engine: if you will remove the 620HP engine and you will put there the Daewoo Tico 41HP motor and later you will try to sell this car as "better - more safe - version of Ferrari" believe me: the Ferrari company will sue you! You know why... Because what you are selling is no more a Ferrari but a counterfeit of Ferrari.

The same with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. It was a project done by the Czechoslovakian Army (nowday it would be protected by the copyright law and for sure marked with trademark). There are only 5 lines of CzWs and ONLY dogs coming from those lines can be described as CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS. Additionally the Czechoslovakian team of "constructors" of this breed exactly described the characteristics of CsW and publishe it in the breed standard. You MUST follow the rules set by them. If you do something else you are breaking the "copyright rules" by producing counterfeits of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.

Which dog? The only F5 I know is the G-litter - Garuda, Geryon, Gibil and Gwaihir visit our meeting frequently. None of them is even a bit shy. And they are extremely friendly...

[Morian]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

No one needs a csw who is able to pass IPO exams! We do not need aggressiv forward going like to use their teeth csw. We need simply pet wolfdogs who are family dogs and can stay in the house with the people and do not need to put in kennels.

eee? do you still talk about czechoslovakian wolfdog, fci standard nr. 322
"UTILIZATION : Working Dog. CLASSIFICATION F.C.I. : Group 1 Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs. Section 1 Sheepdogs. With working trial."??? ipo or any other exam means that the dog is controlable and trained, not agressive. stop to mix cutlets and flies please

[furyos]

Waouuuu so much Bad words in this topic ...really you have a real big problem ... For information in France we have an exam to have the pedigree and breed with our dogs ..and the juge accept or not only if the dog is in the standard ...if for you have a wolfish type is not the standard shame on you because it s the standard ... Nothing else are in my blood line than what is wrote on pedigree ... Sorry if you don t have same result with your marriage .... Margo never use same blood and never crying wolf the most wolfish dog in Europe with passo del lupo ...after it s your choie and don t blâme if in few tzars your smaller smaller dog arrive ... Use allways sale Male Like eligo don t give a good example for you Margo who want give best chance to our breed ... Money money money ... Perhaps you can cross him with poodle ... I can give you some French kennel adress ... ) best regards drama forum ... For your information if few people like to be manipulate like lamb in this marketing PERON ....not me ... !!!" God save this queen " but not me !!! Best of the best for you ... Frank capiez ... (big honor to be so important in few moment in tchecoslovaquian wolfdog world )

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by furyos

Waouuuu so much Bad words in this topic ...really you have a real big problem ...

No, WE don´t have.

Frank, you told us your father is a breeder of siberian huskies since 1970 (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/newrepl...wreply&p=76539 ), and most of your dogs are officially bred by your father.

You yourself love dogs from PDL, CW and de Louba tar (or should I say Sun gifu - grin).

So much facilities, Frank .... loooooooooool

And ... attack is not always the best defense

Cheers
Angelika

[hanninadina]

Margo and Daiva, it was three years ago or something, it was Geriyon, Miguel knew this dog very well because he was in contact with Davia during that time. He showed me the dog.

So I am very sorry, in the end, the discussion is in the end there, where it was every time it is discussed. I do not know why no vet and a official from french csw club goes to Sophie and take some gene material and make a gene test?

Although Doz and Demoinak look almost like siblings, I noticed of course that the off spring of Demoniak has big ears - ears like Saarloos! And from temperament he is more like Saarloos and not csw. So I think, I stay with my opinion that he is a son of Skog! Jos, only wanted to make some trouble and was jealous because the american wolfdogforum people wrote that I seem to have more knowledge about some dogs. That is why he hit out his statement, that HE knows better who the father of Demoniak is.

And because of the big ears, Margo, I can not believe that there is american wolfdog in him.

By the way, can you copy the pictures from 2005, which you did linked in the wayback machine archive? Because I can not open it, but I would really like to watch the pictures of the wolves or american wolfdogs, which where shown when Franky announced his first or second litter from Merlin and Ossa Crying Wolf. You can download it and post it here. Would be great and would rather leads to more understanding that Franky is a liar.

Thanks
Christian

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Margo and Daiva, it was three years ago or something, it was Geriyon, Miguel knew this dog very well because he was in contact with Davia during that time. He showed me the dog.

So I am very sorry, in the end, the discussion is in the end there, where it was every time it is discussed. I do not know why no vet and a official from french csw club goes to Sophie and take some gene material and make a gene test?

Although Doz and Demoinak look almost like siblings, I noticed of course that the off spring of Demoniak has big ears - ears like Saarloos! And from temperament he is more like Saarloos and not csw. So I think, I stay with my opinion that he is a son of Skog! Jos, only wanted to make some trouble and was jealous because the american wolfdogforum people wrote that I seem to have more knowledge about some dogs. That is why he hit out his statement, that HE knows better who the father of Demoniak is.


Thanks
Christian

Just as a little reminder:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Jos de Bruin, owner and breeder of Saarloos Wolfdogs living in germany brought some light in the discussion wheather Demoniak is a mix with american or europaen wolf. He wrote in american wolfdog forum:


I remember that he bought in 2006 or 2007 this CSW/Wolf-Mix in Berlin for 500,--Euros. Because he had trouble with his neighbours and the courts he could not keep this dog. So it could be, what he wrote. But isn´t it ironicle that a Saarloos breeder put his hands in the csw breed? Ok, he says, he is not guilty... lol.[/color][/font]

It was you that started the discussion here.
You want to leave it without an excuse to Jos and a new little kick to the direction of Margo and Daiva

Do you really think people here have such short memories? Or have you already forgotten yourself?

Ina

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Margo and Daiva, it was three years ago or something, it was Geriyon, Miguel knew this dog very well because he was in contact with Davia during that time. He showed me the dog.

Then he made mistake... Geryon was never shy. On the contrary He was and is a MACHO. For some people too big macho....

The only dog from this litter which can be described as "not self-confident" is Glasya. But it seem to be caused by missing socialization and the conditions where she is living (a pack of dogs).

The rest of the litter was possible to see in Pozna. Still If you visit us you will have the possiblity to see Garuda, Gibil, Gwaihir and maybe even Geryon (Gothmog is living in Denmark - but his character is simply PERFERCT ). You will have the possiblity to convince yourself that you never can describe those animals as "shy".