Is there at least one working line in the breed of csw?

[Huan]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

How people in italy see it, like Massimo who is working too with Olli? Of course Olli comes not from a working line. But all the pups from Ambra, like Last Navarre, Lorenz Farouk are so called working dogs.

Why do you mention Lorenz Farouk as working dog. Having Ambra as a mother makes a dog a working dog? As far as I know Lorenz Farouk has good character but doesn't have any passed exams. We can't base only on "good character" when calling some bloodline a working line.

I will keep my opinion that there are no real working lines in the breed. As a working line I would understand a line in which the extraordinary character is being inherited by the offsprings of these dogs and there are proofs that the character is genetically better than in other lines. What I can agree about that there are specific dogs which gave better characters, their offspring has also good characters. But good character for me is just typical feature and not something extraordinary. Shortly said: there are lines with typical (according standard) and untypical characters. For a line to become a "working line" I would like to see wolfdogs which are not just trainable but ones that have real drive for work. And I'm not talking about single cases but whole line with working exams passed on higher levels.

As for Hasso being the father of working line: I understand that people who own wolfdogs that have Hasso in their pedigree will promote him as a founder of a working line because at the same time their dogs become "woldogs from THE working line" Breeders are also very often promoting the same way - having puppies from "working line" is not a bad thing even when it's just a marketing talk But there are many facts that will show that Hasso besides being one of a few wolfdogs with IPO3 doesn't pass the super working abilities on his offsprings. First of all we should think over whether Hasso had any EXCEPTIONAL working abilities which he could pass over or maybe he was just an ordinary wolfdog with typical, stable character and an owner having lots of free time spending it on training Hasso? I know it took Hasso many years to pass IPO3 exam, the training with Hasso was a way of spending free time for Mr. Pudil. The question is: what would your wolfdog achieve if you would spend the same amount of time on training? If the dog gets up to IPO3 will it automatically become founder of working line and if only IPO2 then it will not be a working line dog? There are too many factors that influence achieved exams (work of the owner being the major factor).

OK. Now let's look at the offsprings of Hasso to check whether we can say that they have better working abilities than other wolfdogs. According to the database there are 759 wolfdogs that have Hasso in their pedigree. You named a few with passed exams. How does it correspond to these 759 wolfdogs? Mentioned dogs make less than one percent of all offsprings of Hasso. Besides some of these dogs have Hasso in further generation and saying that Hasso is responsible for the training achievements of the specific dog is like saying that the wolfdog got IPO1 because he has Bojar, great working german shepherd dog, in tenth generation

Originally Posted by massimo

SKY:
Guess what...he's son of
I'Navarre Arimminum, son of Ambra, daughter of HASSO.
Hasso surely gives working lines because many working dogs come from him.
...
in the first case we have an evident working line.

No, in the first case we have an evident dog with correct, typical character. It's not my fault that some judges or breeders promote shy dogs. Only because the typical dog has IPO3 dog in 3rd generation doesn't make his bloodline a working line. If we go in this direction then we can go further. ALL WORKING DOGS have Rep z Pohranicni straze in their pedigree. Does it mean Rep is founder of a working line?

Originally Posted by massimo

for those of you who have any doubts about Hasso being NOT ONLY a working DOG but also a working BLOODLINE...
Hasso z Kladenské záøe CS
ZM, ZVV1, SchH1, SchH2, IPO1, IPO2, OP1, IPO3, ZPS1, FH1, FH2, ZVV1, VZ1

direct sons of Hasso:
Ira z Litavské kotliny CS
ZOP, ZM, RH-E, ZVV1, VZ1, ZPU1, ZPU2, SchH1, SchH2, IPO1, IPO2, BH, ZPO1, ZZO

Irma z Litavské kotliny CS
PT1, PT2, LA1, LA2, LA3

Ambra Vlèí nadìje
SchH1, IPO1

Kelt z Molu Es
SchHA, ZPO1, IPO1, ZVV1, ZVV2, ZOP

Sky and Upstream Ariminnum are direct sons of Ambra...

Nice examples. But are you sure these dogs achieved these exams because they had Hasso in their pedigree? Ira and Irma are daughters of Hasso BUT they are also daughters of Abra z Molu which got ZVV2 (comparable with IPO2). Abra herself is daughter of Gar z Rosikova (ZM, ZVV1, ZPU, ZZP1, ZLP1, ZVV2, VZ 100 km) and Asta z Tondova (ZM, ZVV1, ZVV2, ZUP). But yet you are saying that Irma and Ira are working dogs because of Hasso whoes parents have .... one ZOP.

Irma is also not a perfect example of working dog. She makes beautiful obedience and agility but at the same time she has very strong reaction on gun shot and because of it she will never pass BH or IPO.

Kelt z Molu is also not a best example. Everybody who saw Kelt during work and his mother Ajbix will have no doubts that Kelt inherited character from his mother. The difference is that she doesn't have IPO3 like Hasso but I'm sure she could get it if only Monika would have more time to train her and had such aspiration. Monika herself was saying that Ajbix works like a German Shepherd Dog. And exactly such type of work makes Kelt so good working CzW (many people say the best in CZ).

Upstream Ariminnnum has very nice character but everybody knows that Aron Maly Bysterec, father of Upstream, gives such specific stable characters to his offsprings. I'm sure Mirka, owner of Mery Kysucka hvezda (daughter of Aron) or Saschia, owner of Frei Maly Bysterec (also daughter of Aron) will agree with me. It doesn't have to be contribution of Hasso. And there are much more offsprings of Aron with good, stable character and everybody who saw him working on sleeve during the camp in Slovakia will admit that Upstream is working like her father. I know that some people will never admit that there are Slovakian CzWs with nice character but it is so.

Originally Posted by massimo

Can it be simply a coincidence?

Yes. We are talking about dog with 759 offsprings. Naming a few with passed exams can be considered only as a coincidence.

But when it comes to Hasso. I saw Hasso offsprings in first generation and many of them were very shy. It's visible in the database. I didn't saw any of the puppies of Aretha Hanka z Vlasatic. From the litter of Doubravka I saw one dog: Fany. Their owners said to people many times that the dog doesn't cooperate with them and is hard to train (not shy) and it was also very good visible. From the litter of Cira Volani rodu I saw 6 dogs: Agar - he was given to dog specialist because of shy character in order to prepare him for bonitation, Asta was shy, Bad Vlci nadeje also shy (Oc and P5 from bonitation), Beatris is living in Poland and even now she is not able to calm down in the ring - she's always scared and Bianka - disqualication during bonitation because of character. And I'm talking about dogs which I saw on my own eyes.


I'm not denying that there are bloodlines with better or worser characters but I'm against calling some lines a "working line" just because there is a IPO3 dog in x-generation or because the dogs have good, stable character. Typical character is a MUST and not something extraordinary. We can talk about bloodlines with typical or untypical characters and not about working or useless lines. Don't forget that the breed is defined as working breed so when you're saying that some line is a "working line" you're talking about "super working dogs" I can't say that offsprings of my dog will be a part of working line just because I was able to socialize my dog in the way that he shows no shyness