"List" of typical csv cross defect?

[elf]

Another growing problem is csv cross breed raising number, meanwhile DNA check, what would be a "list" of typical csv cross defect ? a data base of pictures of crossed csv ? My dog is crossed (yes I know I'm a bad guy), I showed her at two french judges which belived she was pure breed (even with the ears... but I also saw "strange" ears in pure csv). Here are some pics for experts, could you made the error as these two judges did ? (try to forget she is crossed while looking for defect)

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=14
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=16
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=17
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=22

[Margo]

Originally Posted by elf

My dog is crossed (yes I know I'm a bad guy), I showed her at two french judges which belived she was pure breed (even with the ears... but I also saw "strange" ears in pure csv). Here are some pics for experts, could you made the error as these two judges did ?

They do not make mistake... Basing on the pictures I will also say it is a CzW. Sure there are some things which are not typical for CzW but believe me I know many CzW which are 100% purebreed which look much more different from CzW as your dog...

Dark eyes, rouder ears of black mask is still pretty common problem. What is easier to see are dogs which are crosses with Nordic breeds (like huskies), Saarloos or American Wolves because the masks are different than by typical CzW. Such crosses have "oculars" (typical for huskies, not known by CzW) and also the mask is only on the top of the nose - this cross is the best example:



Similar results you get while crossing CzW and Saarlos.

When you cross CzW with Husky the dogs look in many cases similar but have smaller ears...

[elf]

Well... it makes things really difficult for the future because in France we have more and more crosses that can become "real" csv with the "titre initial".

[saschia]

Originally Posted by elf

A My dog is crossed (yes I know I'm a bad guy)...

You are not bad guy for giving a dog a home. You may be a not much responsible guy if you produce cross litter and you really are a bad guy if you produce a cross litter and falsify their papers to proclaim them as pure blood... So which one are you? ;o)

[Hanka]

FUJ Saschia

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Hanka

FUJ Saschia

Sorry, falsify is a dirty word? My apologies... ;o)

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

You are not bad guy for giving a dog a home. You may be a not much responsible guy if you produce cross litter and you really are a bad guy if you produce a cross litter and falsify their papers to proclaim them as pure blood... So which one are you? ;o)

Угадай!

[saschia]

Originally Posted by elf

Угадай!

Well, then I guess than that you are just a guy, not irresponsible nor bad... Who either speaks russian or uses online translators

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

Well, then I guess than that you are just a guy, not irresponsible nor bad... Who either speaks russian or uses online translators

We speak half russian home, even my dog .

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by elf

Угадай!

And fore us ho do not know russian, Угадай means Guess

Regards / Mikael

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by elf

Another growing problem is csv cross breed raising number, meanwhile DNA check, what would be a "list" of typical csv cross defect ? a data base of pictures of crossed csv ? My dog is crossed (yes I know I'm a bad guy), I showed her at two french judges which belived she was pure breed (even with the ears... but I also saw "strange" ears in pure csv). Here are some pics for experts, could you made the error as these two judges did ? (try to forget she is crossed while looking for defect)

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=14
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=16
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=17
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=22

glad you bring this subject up as problem in Europe I was to believe looking at this web site it was only problem in u.k., ?? people will cross dogs no mater what and nothing we can do about it, the big problem in Europe is people who cross breed then register the puppies as pure CVS, I now know by looking at many pics and your info on this topic that this is going on in Europe, we are more lucky in uk as we know the people doing this but it is impossable to register such dogs, I have talks soon with kennel club before i proceed to put CVS up for recognition as law has changed in uk. I also see over the years on this site more and more questions on health issues in the CVS, In uk I want all CVS must have health cheeks done before breeding age, dogs that have problems will not have there breeding restrictions lifted if they fail any test and so any pups that may get breed by these dogs can never have pedigree, sure it will be hard but at least it is good start for breed in u.k., yes i have sold dogs to people who have now cross breed but they signed papers with me on sale of pups that they would never do this, but i can not control this as the breeders in Europe can not control it either, we can not see into the future, we can not know when selling a pup what people will do, we can only meet the people and from what they tell us we decide to sell pup or not,, it is a thing that every breeder will do, the dogs i have sold that have been used by people who gross bred i am not responsable for what they do, but as the breeder when the breed does get recognition i can if i want choose not to register the litter with the kennel club, this would mean there dogs even though they are pure CSV will never have pedigrees.....then they learn not to break promise and cross breed the CVS with other breeds. pacino kennels

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by solowolf

glad you bring this subject up as problem in Europe I was to believe looking at this web site it was only problem in u.k., ?? people will cross dogs no mater what and nothing we can do about it, the big problem in Europe is people who cross breed then register the puppies as pure CVS, I now know by looking at many pics and your info on this topic that this is going on in Europe, we are more lucky in uk as we know the people doing this but it is impossable to register such dogs, I have talks soon with kennel club before i proceed to put CVS up for recognition as law has changed in uk. I also see over the years on this site more and more questions on health issues in the CVS, In uk I want all CVS must have health cheeks done before breeding age, dogs that have problems will not have there breeding restrictions lifted if they fail any test and so any pups that may get breed by these dogs can never have pedigree, sure it will be hard but at least it is good start for breed in u.k., yes i have sold dogs to people who have now cross breed but they signed papers with me on sale of pups that they would never do this, but i can not control this as the breeders in Europe can not control it either, we can not see into the future, we can not know when selling a pup what people will do, we can only meet the people and from what they tell us we decide to sell pup or not,, it is a thing that every breeder will do, the dogs i have sold that have been used by people who gross bred i am not responsable for what they do, but as the breeder when the breed does get recognition i can if i want choose not to register the litter with the kennel club, this would mean there dogs even though they are pure CSV will never have pedigrees.....then they learn not to break promise and cross breed the CVS with other breeds. pacino kennels

Thank you for this...I have the same fears about the CSV in the US, that it will end up in the hands of someone who will use it for crossbreeding, and affect the reputation and/or the genepool of CSVs here, eventually. I don't think anyone says that these crosses happen only in the UK - there is a higher concentration considering the small amount of dogs in the UK, I believe, and some of the UK crossbreeders openly boast about their practices on their websites, whereas other crossbreeders elsewhere keep their practices a little more hidden. I think maybe the best way to prevent crossbreeding is to be transparent, open, and honest as CSV owners and breeders, and not try to hide things, even if they are our own mistakes. If we see something strange outside of our own homes and kennels, I don't think it is wrong to question it. If there is nothing to hide, then the truth should prevail, and there is no problem.

Paul, I've asked you before, and now again - who are the CSVs in the UK that you know of, where are they, and who owns them? Have some of the UK CSVs come to the US?

Marcy

[wolfin]

Only DNA test help for You in UK and USA.
who speak breeder... not all thime be true. And if I mas buy pupps from UK, only with DNA test. (like and in others countrys )

[elf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

Only DNA test help for You in UK and USA.
who speak breeder... not all thime be true. And if I mas buy pupps from UK, only with DNA test. (like and in others countrys )

I would add that I would be very careful of the blood taken policies as there are laboratories that accept blood samples taken by the breeder. You need to have an official vet involved who will check dogs identification.

[elf]

Another existing problem: incompatibility between laboratories from different countries which don't use same markers.

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by wolfin

Only DNA test help for You in UK and USA.
who speak breeder... not all thime be true. And if I mas buy pupps from UK, only with DNA test. (like and in others countrys )

Oh yes, I will definitely "do my research" when I buy or breed - for myself. Here is the problem: The AKC requires DNA testing before registering litters from foreign born litters. But after that, if both parents are born in the US, no DNA test is required to register with the AKC - only the pedigrees of the dam/sire have to be sent in, no DNA tests, no health results, no show or training results. This system is very flawed, and while it may never be a problem for my own eventual breeding program, it could become a huge issue for the breed overall in the US, especially if a dishonest breeder registers a crossed litter as pure, and one of the dogs bites or attacks someone - it would be a huge scandal.

This is the reason I try to know as much about the dogs in the US and Canada as I can. I want to know about the dogs in the UK too, because many Americans look to the UK next as a place to import CSVs from - not because of the quality of dogs, or any other good reason, but mainly because they are scared of the language barrier, and don't realize that many people outside of the UK in Europe also speak perfectly good English...

All the best,
Marcy

[wolfin]

hmmm, if people have problem with language.... and... only this problem to import CSW... I scare, who wolfdog be in US?

but I think (sorry if not be ) problem in people mentalitet, I be from Lithua, me first bitch be from Czech Republik- we speak in misling language- one word english 2 rusish, other polish, next maybe with dictionary i wright czech, but - we not see in this problem, now I have friend in all Europa and Amerika, and we speak we cann, all language who know be good to dogs owners speak, only You mass WISH .

sorry from OT.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

Oh yes, I will definitely "do my research" when I buy or breed - for myself. Here is the problem: The AKC requires DNA testing before registering litters from foreign born litters. But after that, if both parents are born in the US, no DNA test is required to register with the AKC - only the pedigrees of the dam/sire have to be sent in, no DNA tests, no health results, no show or training results. This system is very flawed, and while it may never be a problem for my own eventual breeding program, it could become a huge issue for the breed overall in the US, especially if a dishonest breeder registers a crossed litter as pure, and one of the dogs bites or attacks someone - it would be a huge scandal.

This is the reason I try to know as much about the dogs in the US and Canada as I can. I want to know about the dogs in the UK too, because many Americans look to the UK next as a place to import CSVs from - not because of the quality of dogs, or any other good reason, but mainly because they are scared of the language barrier, and don't realize that many people outside of the UK in Europe also speak perfectly good English...

All the best,
Marcy

in uk in past 6 yrs there has only been 3 litters of pure CSVs bred, two by myself , we stopped breeding programe as we wanted to increase the gene pool no sense in producing pups all related bad news,,, we are now concentrating on importing more dogs which we are doing right now, we can put breeding restrictions on pups we breed, this restriction is with the kennel club, to get restriction lifted so you can breed, the dog must have all health tests done, if all is o.k. the dog can be used to breed from, if it fails or if new owner does not have health tests done then any pups bred will be refused registration papers and pedigrees, the kennel club in uk agree to this for us. so in future you will have no fears of buying dogs from u.k. if buying dog from u.k. you can ask kennel club direct for proof of pedigree via email, also will be all results of health tests from both parents and microchips of parents and dog or pup you wish to buy, any breeder of pure dogs will supply you with this information and you can varify it with kennel club, you can also check pedigrees on wolfdog.org, you can then work back and see what parents and grand parents look like, my second litter i wanted to improve on coat and hight, i checked for weeks on this site i seen dog and then looked at pedigree, then went back to see grand parents and so on, and i went to Holland and used dog from VanGOVERWELL kennel, i got what i wanted a fantastic litter, improved dogs. i have been breeding dogs for 34 yrs and still learning,,, we will have the CSVs at discoverdogs at crufts in 2009 and have articles going into magazines to promote the breed, 2009 will be the year for the CSVsin u.k. we took 6yrs to change the law now our dogs will demand the respect they deserve and all the dangerous wild animal crap is gone for good,,,,,,,,,,pacino

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

Only DNA test help for You in UK and USA.
who speak breeder... not all thime be true. And if I mas buy pupps from UK, only with DNA test. (like and in others countrys )

all the CWS in uk are originally from Europe have pedigree and export pedigree from FCI, the pups from these dogs will now be registered by uk kennel club and have pedigrees, how many CSW in Europe DNA tested ? not a lot,, and how come we see dogs not pure CWS with pedigrees in Europe? please tell us in uk how this happens? the CWS to be registered in uk are all pure bred we make sure of this, i breed my bitch with reputable breeder from Holland, we import male from reputable breeder in Europe for second litter, all dogs health tested, we look at pedigrees and photos on wolfdog.org before we buy from Europe, so we take all steps to make sure we have pure dog, look on this site and see now many variations of the breed in Europe, small dogs, dogs with no substance, CWS that are timid and shy, look at many new up comming health problems and just over last 5-8 yrs, many posts asking about health problems, so all is not o.k. in Europe, i only wish it was, but here in uk we have great opertunity to breed only from good health tested dogs, if health problem is on tests then no pups from the breeding if done will be registered by kennel club, we have only 28 CWS to DNA so at present we are doing well in uk, thank you regards pacino