Inbreed and health....

[taro]

Hello from Barcelona. I'm about to purchase a puppy of wolfdog but thereis something that worries me. I've heard of people that cross the breed with memebers of a same family, but I would like to know if it's recommendable to do it among siblings. Please tell me if you know.

[saschia]

Hello,

inbreeding (breeding from closely related animals) was used in the beginning of the breed formation, due to very low number of available individuals. Therefore today the animals are relatively closely related (comparing to older breeds), but are already so distant, that their mating is no longer considered inbreeding.

Today, inbreeding in Czechoslovak Wolfdog is not recomended and in countries where the breeders are controlled (meaning that the puppies receive their pedigrees only if certain conditions are met), mating of closely related animals is usually not allowed. Therefore there is wide choice of puppies from non-related or distantly related parents.

Breeding from closely related animals is not recomended - it might cause some genetic problems, such as low resistance to diseases, worse coat, lower number of teeth, etc.

[Monika]

Off topic:

..but for everybody.

I s very easy be the critic if I am breeder of 1 litter.

You can breed 100 puppies and we can speak regularly about his quality. Before you be in silence and look.

Sussana I don´t have anything agaist you…but your combination ( Navarre - son of Grey Wolf z Molu Es x Isabeu - daughter of Jolly z Molu Es) isn´t absolutly correct for Czech rep. and you could have problems if you are dwelt in Czech rep. Your pupipes are absolutly OK??? If yes, you can say thanks My GOOD!
And you can by happy if you are in Italy and you can breed without kennel´s name.
For breeding in Italy isn´t important CLUB but ENCI. Club is for nothing for breeders in Italy- only associate of breeders.

I saw many sick of CSWs….with demodex, epilepsy, dwarfismus, cancer, sterility, elefantismus, loos of maternal instincts, heart defects…..teeh defects, dysplasy, kryptorchism….etc.

Long hair isn´t big problem (only exterier problem) and sometimes coming from GSD. Forget on wolf. Our breed have minimaly 70 % blood of GSD !!! and his problems, too!

But I NEVER will put photos of really sick dogs on WOLFDOG. ORG.
This is tabloid press and will make from nothing BIG problem.

If our breed have some problems, these problems are OF ALL! Our dogs have very similary blood and I think you are very often forget it. Is very easy to show on others.

The motivation can be various.......

And to Hana. Hana I saw many dogs and litters od Uhoste. Not all was healthy and without problems, don´t forget it and be correct to others breeders, too.

Sorry for my English, Monika Soukupová

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

I know that you will have in every litter maybe one puppy with not so good hips. There are only a few litters where all puppies are clean. But mostly not all puppies were x-rayed.

OK, I agree but...I don't see why exclude Farouk from reproduction.
I think is not an health question, simply they don't like so much Farouk...easy.

Originally Posted by Monika

Your pupipes are absolutly OK??? If yes, you can say thanks My GOOD!

little off topic-------------

Thank you for your answer Monika, may be we are little of topic but, yes we hope our puppies will be all OK
When we take Navarre we liked very much the character of Ambra (and of Grey when we meet him!), and the same thing was for Jolly.
When we mate Navarre x Isabeau our main aim (hope) was to have the character. similar to theri parents..thank's God the character of the puppies is far better than we can imagine (ok, our opinion not a fact) and very good for a csw.

Of course they have many faults, and we still don't know anything of their HD, but the main target was accomplished.

I think the published photos is not the point (i can publish some ugly photos of some ugly sons of Navarre too) but was just an answering to Christian, that was bringing these dogs as "the" example of the excellent italian breeding.

end off topic-------------


But back on topic, Monika, what is your opinion on this ? Is better to breed with an unknown dog found in a public kennel or with a Mutara mix ?
Do you know if "Alaska" is really "Alaska" or she is a Mutara ?

[Hanka]

Originally Posted by Monika

And to Hana. Hana I saw many dogs and litters od Uhoste. Not all was healthy and without problems, don´t forget it and be correct to others breeders, too.

To Monika: Where I told all my puppies are health and 100%???? Are you crazy?
Our wolfdogs are our darlings, but they are "biologis material, not machine" !!!
And don´t write me, please, I don´t want comunicate with you....

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Monika

Sussana I don´t have anything agaist you…but your combination ( Navarre - son of Grey Wolf z Molu Es x Isabeu - daughter of Jolly z Molu Es) isn´t absolutly correct for Czech rep. and you could have problems if you are dwelt in Czech rep. Your pupipes are absolutly OK??? If yes, you can say thanks My GOOD!

Sorry Monika but your words make made me laught again... Again tha same... If you make something it is great and OK. But if someone else makes something (even not so exterm) - you criticize it... Typical...

As breeding comittee member you aprooved mating Jerry Lee z Molu Es and Isa Bella z Molu Es (for all interested please see this litter http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7597). Such inbreed was OK for you and Czech Republic? So how can you criticize Navarre when you said "OK" for litter with 2x higher inbreed?

Originally Posted by hanninadina

My last words to this theme:

Susanna you have two really nice dogs, but why the hell did you do inbreeding in your first litter? Jolly and Grey Wolf have the same mother! And this is not all, the fathers of Jolly and Grey Wolf are brothers.

Doing inbreeding is bad and causes high demages and illness. Inbreeding, if it is necessary, what sometimes can happen, is something to be done by really experienced breeder. But sorry, is it right that this litter from Last Navarre and Isabeau is your first litter? Didn´t you talk to Margo or/and Sarka? Why can somebody like you who is doing such a thing, blame things like Mutara where is coming really fresh blood and genes into the breed?

Mutara are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and every serious breeder will be against it. As every serious breeder will be against mixing CzW with GSD, Belgian Shepherds, Chihuahua or Husky...

About the litter of Last Navarre and Isabeau. Please take a look on it.. The Wright is MUCH LOWER than average inbreed coefficient in Czech Republic. There is small inbreed on Amalka od Bulizniku - the most famous breeding bitch in Czech Republic, mother of the most known dogs "z Molu Es", female who was able to get BOB on the dog show in CZ at the age of 12(!) years. Great female giving great healthy puppies. After it look in the pedigree of the puppies of Last Navarre and Isabeau - have you seen many litters with so great HD-results? And good pedigree + good genetics is working - all puppies are great. No wonder that A'wasat become Youth World Winner in Poznan and Best Junior of the World Dog Show.... There are no coincidences...

[Monika]

Margo when you say A you must to say B.

I know very well Amálka - she was My 13 years But I know all about her, not only nice things like you presented. I know Agar and Ali Reolup very well - Amur, too and his offsprings, too.
Please not lern me….but if you like, you can !
I only showed for example Navarre x Isabeau, like Sussana very often to shows on others.

But if I want to shows on others…first I must look on own court. And this is valid for everbody.

I never start similary discussion!

and
I don´t like combination Isa Bella x Jerry Lee, too. This is similary….

......like many others combinations!

I keep smiling always when some people speaking and writing about Mutara!

Good night

Monika

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Monika

Long hair isn´t big problem (only exterier problem) and sometimes coming from GSD. Forget on wolf. Our breed have minimaly 70 % blood of GSD !!! and his problems, too!

SORRY but You is STUPID? women and breeder or hev others problems?
This is very very big problem. You see GSD problems with this.
GSD have litters with 50 % or more longhair puppies and ALL puppies going with PET pedigree.
You will BREDING normal wolfdog or PETS?
hmm, i thinks PETS

and this problems have only italian breeders (all cann hes )

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by wolfin

SORRY but You is STUPID?

Sorry, but I think is not necessary to use bad languages, we are only speaking as civil people.

I think is not necessary especially when a long time experienced breeder as Monika give us a contribution or her opinions to this discussion.

[wolfin]

Very sorry from me emocions and this worts.
Monika am sorry from this worts.

[fizban]

Originally Posted by Monika

Off topic:

..but for everybody.

I s very easy be the critic if I am breeder of 1 litter.

You can breed 100 puppies and we can speak regularly about his quality. Before you be in silence and look.

Sussana I don´t have anything agaist you…but your combination ( Navarre - son of Grey Wolf z Molu Es x Isabeu - daughter of Jolly z Molu Es) isn´t absolutly correct for Czech rep. and you could have problems if you are dwelt in Czech rep. Your pupipes are absolutly OK??? If yes, you can say thanks My GOOD!
And you can by happy if you are in Italy and you can breed without kennel´s name.
For breeding in Italy isn´t important CLUB but ENCI. Club is for nothing for breeders in Italy- only associate of breeders.

I saw many sick of CSWs….with demodex, epilepsy, dwarfismus, cancer, sterility, elefantismus, loos of maternal instincts, heart defects…..teeh defects, dysplasy, kryptorchism….etc.

Long hair isn´t big problem (only exterier problem) and sometimes coming from GSD. Forget on wolf. Our breed have minimaly 70 % blood of GSD !!! and his problems, too!

But I NEVER will put photos of really sick dogs on WOLFDOG. ORG.
This is tabloid press and will make from nothing BIG problem.

If our breed have some problems, these problems are OF ALL! Our dogs have very similary blood and I think you are very often forget it. Is very easy to show on others.

The motivation can be various.......

And to Hana. Hana I saw many dogs and litters od Uhoste. Not all was healthy and without problems, don´t forget it and be correct to others breeders, too.

Sorry for my English, Monika Soukupová

Hello,

I've just noticed this post.. Monika, if you are still reading the thread and you have time to reply (or if someone else experienced with breeding can give me answers) I'd have a question related to the CsW health - I think it's an interesting topic for every owner.

Specifically: some of the illnesses you mentioned aren't genetic (or at least, they aren't according to what I know about them). Cancer can be caused by TONS of different factors (nutrition in primis), demodex are mites (bad nutrition and immune compromised system surely "help" them), sterility and loss of maternal instinct can be caused by a lot of issues.

Has it ever been made any scientific research on what are the most common genetic health issues CsW have? Beside the obvious displasy I mean. If so, which was the result? (just the issues, not the percentage of CsW affected - but that would be interesting as well).

Because as far as I read around, CsW looks much healthier than other breeds. What I read from other owners surely have no scientific value, but it's still something to pay attention to.

Thanks