Italian bonitations

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Sorry Max, this in NOT true. Really.

This is what I was told, NOT by Italian Club but by one of the ENCI working persons.
Maybe I am wrong.
I will further investigate about it, and give you feedback.

Just one note: if we want...we can make ANY dog pull back if put on a pole and alone... all we need to do is make a STRONG attack.
The attacks I saw during Slovak Bonitations were NOT attacks...they were a lady with a stick going near the dog without looking at it.

In my opinion, i repeat, NEITHER of the tests are good enough to understand the real character of the dog. They help the judge, that's all.
If the Judge is a good judge (i never go to a Bonitation if I think the judge is NOT good enough...) he/she will be able to give the correct Character definition.
massimo

[martiou07]

I repeat my question, why does Italy make a different test? with a which aim? the Czechs and the Slovak ones set up tests adapted to a race they built, why Italy wants to make differently.

I am not at all agreement, a judge so good he can be cannot judge the character of the dog correctly right while basing himself on this test…

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by massimo

This is what I was told, NOT by Italian Club but by one of the ENCI working persons.
Maybe I am wrong.
I will further investigate about it, and give you feedback.

Just one note: if we want...we can make ANY dog pull back if put on a pole and alone... all we need to do is make a STRONG attack.
The attacks I saw during Slovak Bonitations were NOT attacks...they were a lady with a stick going near the dog without looking at it.

In my opinion, i repeat, NEITHER of the tests are good enough to understand the real character of the dog. They help the judge, that's all.
If the Judge is a good judge (i never go to a Bonitation if I think the judge is NOT good enough...) he/she will be able to give the correct Character definition.
massimo

AHA !!!!
Yes now I know all
You training dog for this and make this test in this method- You make like with GSD - hes korung cann make when dog have IPO 1 like minimum, this is same - You tested whe good is trainined dog, but NOT REAL dogs character.
Yes in this case italian dogs have good opinion in this test when You tested hes trainable not real character
in this case i moore believe in this "lady with stick" but not in Yours profesional figurangt jumping
massimo this is my opinion

[martiou07]

Originally Posted by massimo

Just one note: if we want...we can make ANY dog pull back if put on a pole and alone... all we need to do is make a STRONG attack.
The attacks I saw during Slovak Bonitations were NOT attacks...they were a lady with a stick going near the dog without looking at it.

you would have had to come at the time of the bonitations this year to France, this is not a woman and so that my dog is in this state, you can believe me, there was threat

[massimo]

@martiou07
i speak for what i see.
If in france it's different, good for you. I referred ONLY to the slovak one, which i saw with my own eyes.
Allow me to quote a well known and well considered judge, Sona Bognarova.
"if the attack is strong or week it doesn't matter, i judge the reaction of the dog accordingly".

Daiva, i agree that we cannot see the real character of the dog with this Italian Character test. Any CSW can be trained to react to a figurant.
I agree with you 100%.
BUT I also don't think we can see the character from the slovak or czech test either.
The only thing I can do is trust the judge.
I am sorry but when I see a bonitation code i don't ask: where was it done??
I ask: who did it?
Some names are for me trustable with eyes closed...others I prefer seeing the dog with my own eyes.

I will NOT say the name but during a summer camp i went close to a dog who was on a chain and alone.
I was stupid because I thought he was young enough to accept me.
He bit my hand.
This dog is a wonderful and beautiful dog, used and appreciated internationally, but seeing a stranger approaching him in a calm way, he bit me.
I didn't tell anybody about this (of course, it was my fault) but I have my own opinion about him, I don't care what the judges say.
Oliver was on a chain alone too. He was barking and growling at ALL the dogs, but if a person came near him, he absolutely didn't care and wanted them to stroke him.
Again... i prefer having my own opinion of a dog's character, boniitation gives me just an idea.
massimo

[wolfin]

Massimo, we speak about diferent bonitation, Yet I know who is in Italy. And yet have me personel opinion who is who.
OFF about dogs:
About dogs without owner and when he is leaving. I am in breed about 10-13 year, but i NOT going to others dogs, who is not me personel owned dogs, maybe I have moore brain or instinct. This is not me dog, and normal dogs reaction is bite. Speak with Pavel, he say this same. and in Pozna memorial is test - dogs not mas accept other people when is alone, he mas defence self.
If speak about me personel dogs, yes he is training for this and better not going to my nice, wolfy doggy when he is alone leaving hard situation in ours land and I mas have real working dogs in my house in others camp make special table- "Danger!!! lithuania piranias"
p.s. about this I speak and writte not one time and You mas member this from others thema

[Grin]

Originally Posted by wolfin

About dogs without owner and when he is leaving. I am in breed about 10-13 year, but i NOT going to others dogs, who is not me personel owned dogs, maybe I have moore brain or instinct. This is not me dog, and normal dogs reaction is bite. Speak with Pavel, he say this same. and in Pozna memorial is test - dogs not mas accept other people when is alone, he mas defence self.

I'm afraid I don't understand this. I thought from what you've written so far, that the dog when left alone should behave calmly toward a person, who approaches to him/her in a normal (friendly) manner - even if that person earlier tried to provoke him/her with a stick (during a bonitation test of course). Now you write, that's guite normal, when a dog bites a man's hand (without a warning?) who didn't behave in a provocative way. Please explain.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Grin

I'm afraid I don't understand this. I thought from what you've written so far, that the dog when left alone should behave calmly toward a person, who approaches to him/her in a normal (friendly) manner - even if that person earlier tried to provoke him/her with a stick (during a bonitation test of course). Now you write, that's guite normal, when a dog bites a man's hand (without a warning?) who didn't behave in a provocative way. Please explain.

I explain You in privat, my polish is better like english
p.s. I say about my personel dogs, he have training to work like guard dogs and mas not make contact when is leaving on leash alone. This is his work , when massimo speak about dogs, I reply, but this thema is not about my or hes dogs back to bonitation

[saschia]

OK, so quick overview:

1. The Slovak bonitation contains contact and weak attack by strange person with the owner absent
2. The Czech bonitation contains meeting of group of people with the dog on leash, and then contact and strong attack with the owner first present but not holding the dog and then again absent.
3. Italian bonitation contains meeting of group of people on the leash and then strong attack with owner holding the dog.

There are two main differences among these 3 types in my opinion:

1. Bonitations 1 and 2 contain contact and attack on dog without owner present. This shows how the dog reacts when on its own. Bonitation 3 does not show this at all.

2. Bonitations 2 and 3 show behavior with owner present. The meeting of group is a good thing but not vital, as the dog during the measurements reacts to strange people with owner present so the judge can see this. So the bonitation 1 also shows the behavior of dog with owner present. Therefore, if we take into account Sonya's word that the attack doesn't have to be strong to show the character, then there is no important difference between bonitations 1 and 2 and we can use the same code.

On the other hand, although bonitation 3 shows strong attack similar to bonitation 2, the owner is not only present, but is holding the dog. This creates even stronger influence of the presence of the owner, the dog feeling that he has both moral and physical support behind it (this is actually used for defence training - the owner holds the leash tightly to not loose physical contact with the dog), and actually having something else to protect except itself. With animals there is a distance limit, where the defense behavior changes from escape to fight. This distance is fairly short with wolves and dogs, so if the dog is attacked and afraid, it will try to run from even small distances. But with the owner on the other side of leash the distance limit may change and affect the dogs behavior.

Therefore I don't think the bonitation 3 should use the same codes as bonitations 1 and 2.

What I said here doesn't mean that the bonitations shows the dog character perfectly - far from it. But we didn't find any better way yet. But there is a big difference between 1+2 and 3, while only a small difference between 1 and 2.

I see the overview was not that quick ;o);

[woland77]

In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole! Is allowed ZTP test, but on this test is without threaten! Reaction of dog when is alone at the pole, is self-defence, and this is normal for 99% of dogs. Shy dog can have self-defence reaction, balanced dog can have self-defence reaction, agressive dog can have self-defence reaction... The mimicry of the dog in self-defense is the same for both the dog's courage, for that balance and the shy. At the pole we can know the self-defence border (very important, self-defence is the first reason of bite), but without threaten, like ZTP.
The pole test like Czech-Slovak bonitation has meaning only in the selection of the military 30 years ago. All test bonitation, Italian too, are insufficient for a real character selection, on a work breed...How many years you have this code selection for character? Where are the working dogs results? Only a few dogs, for great desire of the owners, These results are almost never traceable to the choice of codes of bonitation!
I am convinced that now is the time to end up with these political issues, and is the moment to start with a real character selection for work dog, we need help from other breed, the CZW are very close...on other breed i have seen real result on 3-4 generation, with real test. Is moment to open the eyes!!

[martiou07]

Originally Posted by woland77

In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole! Is allowed ZTP test, but on this test is without threaten! Reaction of dog when is alone at the pole, is self-defence, and this is normal for 99% of dogs. Shy dog can have self-defence reaction, balanced dog can have self-defence reaction, agressive dog can have self-defence reaction... The mimicry of the dog in self-defense is the same for both the dog's courage, for that balance and the shy. At the pole we can know the self-defence border (very important, self-defence is the first reason of bite), but without threaten, like ZTP.
The pole test like Czech-Slovak bonitation has meaning only in the selection of the military 30 years ago. All test bonitation, Italian too, are insufficient for a real character selection, on a work breed...How many years you have this code selection for character? Where are the working dogs results? Only a few dogs, for great desire of the owners, These results are almost never traceable to the choice of codes of bonitation!
I am convinced that now is the time to end up with these political issues, and is the moment to start with a real character selection for work dog, we need help from other breed, the CZW are very close...on other breed i have seen real result on 3-4 generation, with real test. Is moment to open the eyes!!

is true, as you say it, the test of Italian nature can give to the same result an apprehensive dog or balanced.

That is completely different from the tests Slovaques and Czech, it is well damage which you cannot make these tests in Italy ...... In France, the wolfhound is interdict of discipline of corrosive, the first bonitation in France was a test, the club was a little refractory.
However, they note from now on that these tests are very interesting…

[woland77]

Maybe my english is very bad, i say: "on self-defence all type of dog have result very similar, not truly result". On Italian test self-defence is not tested...with threaten dog alone at pole when can't judge the self-defence border. On ZTP test when can have a result of self-defence border. We must to look result on Dobermann character problem (self-defence, sensibility) about 1980,1990 dogs, are been resolved by pole test of ZTP. I think we need the same on CZW!

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by woland77

In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole!

Sorry Alessio, this is NOT true. Really.

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Sorry Alessio, this is NOT true. Really.

Maybe is allowed by normal law, but ENCI not recognized this, i'm sure! Ask to Gianni!

[martiou07]

in France, the threats on a dog prohibited with corrosive should not also be authorized, but the club does what is necessary so that France evolves/moves by taking account of the practices of the creative countries…

considering the number of wolfhound in your country, the club can make this it is necessary so that you can make the bonitations as in the other countries.

or then, is this voluntary on behalf of the club can be ........???