Italian bonitations

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 12:17

Massimo, we speak about diferent bonitation, Yet I know who is in Italy. And yet have me personel opinion who is who.
OFF about dogs:
About dogs without owner and when he is leaving. I am in breed about 10-13 year, but i NOT going to others dogs, who is not me personel owned dogs, maybe I have moore brain or instinct. This is not me dog, and normal dogs reaction is bite. Speak with Pavel, he say this same. and in Pozna memorial is test - dogs not mas accept other people when is alone, he mas defence self.
If speak about me personel dogs, yes he is training for this

and better not going to my nice, wolfy doggy

when he is alone leaving

hard situation in ours land and I mas have real working dogs in my house

in others camp make special table- "Danger!!! lithuania piranias"

p.s. about this I speak and writte not one time

and You mas member this from others thema

Grin · 10-09-2009, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

About dogs without owner and when he is leaving. I am in breed about 10-13 year, but i NOT going to others dogs, who is not me personel owned dogs, maybe I have moore brain or instinct. This is not me dog, and normal dogs reaction is bite. Speak with Pavel, he say this same. and in Pozna memorial is test - dogs not mas accept other people when is alone, he mas defence self.

I'm afraid I don't understand this.

I thought from what you've written so far, that the dog when left alone should behave calmly toward a person, who approaches to him/her in a normal (friendly) manner - even if that person earlier tried to provoke him/her with a stick (during a bonitation test of course). Now you write, that's guite normal, when a dog bites a man's hand (without a warning?) who didn't behave in a provocative way.

Please explain.

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grin

I'm afraid I don't understand this.

I thought from what you've written so far, that the dog when left alone should behave calmly toward a person, who approaches to him/her in a normal (friendly) manner - even if that person earlier tried to provoke him/her with a stick (during a bonitation test of course). Now you write, that's guite normal, when a dog bites a man's hand (without a warning?) who didn't behave in a provocative way.

Please explain.

I explain You in privat, my polish is better like english
p.s. I say about my personel dogs, he have training to work like guard dogs and mas not make contact when is leaving on leash alone. This is his work

, when massimo speak about dogs, I reply, but this thema is not about my or hes dogs

back to bonitation

saschia · 10-09-2009, 13:31

OK, so quick overview:

1. The Slovak bonitation contains contact and weak attack by strange person with the owner absent
2. The Czech bonitation contains meeting of group of people with the dog on leash, and then contact and strong attack with the owner first present but not holding the dog and then again absent.
3. Italian bonitation contains meeting of group of people on the leash and then strong attack with owner holding the dog.

There are two main differences among these 3 types in my opinion:

1. Bonitations 1 and 2 contain contact and attack on dog without owner present. This shows how the dog reacts when on its own. Bonitation 3 does not show this at all.

2. Bonitations 2 and 3 show behavior with owner present. The meeting of group is a good thing but not vital, as the dog during the measurements reacts to strange people with owner present so the judge can see this. So the bonitation 1 also shows the behavior of dog with owner present. Therefore, if we take into account Sonya's word that the attack doesn't have to be strong to show the character, then there is no important difference between bonitations 1 and 2 and we can use the same code.

On the other hand, although bonitation 3 shows strong attack similar to bonitation 2, the owner is not only present, but is holding the dog. This creates even stronger influence of the presence of the owner, the dog feeling that he has both moral and physical support behind it (this is actually used for defence training - the owner holds the leash tightly to not loose physical contact with the dog), and actually having something else to protect except itself. With animals there is a distance limit, where the defense behavior changes from escape to fight. This distance is fairly short with wolves and dogs, so if the dog is attacked and afraid, it will try to run from even small distances. But with the owner on the other side of leash the distance limit may change and affect the dogs behavior.

Therefore I don't think the bonitation 3 should use the same codes as bonitations 1 and 2.

What I said here doesn't mean that the bonitations shows the dog character perfectly - far from it. But we didn't find any better way yet. But there is a big difference between 1+2 and 3, while only a small difference between 1 and 2.

I see the overview was not that quick ;o);

woland77 · 10-09-2009, 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

What I said here doesn't mean that the bonitations shows the dog character perfectly - far from it. But we didn't find any better way yet. But there is a big difference between 1+2 and 3, while only a small difference between 1 and 2.

I'm agree with you, but we don't need political issue but around the table, Italian, Czech, Slovak, French, German and Polish club, to project a new test, better test for all!!!

ethologically on the reaction of the dog alone there is much to discuss, is not simple like: "dog alone have support by owner" is realy but dog alone have primary instict of self-defence, we can't select the dog about reaction from instinctive primary, and is too dificult know with the dog threaten at the pole, the border of the lack of psychological support by owner, and the emergence of instinct primary!

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 13:38

khmm, Polish not have a club, Lithuania have

woland77 · 10-09-2009, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

khmm, Polish not have a club, Lithuania have

is this a big problem?

saschia · 10-09-2009, 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by woland77

ethologically on the reaction of the dog alone there is much to discuss, is not simple like: "dog alone have support by owner" is realy but dog alone have primary instict of self-defence, we can't select the dog about reaction from instinctive primary, and is too dificult know with the dog threaten at the pole, the border of the lack of psychological support by owner, and the emergence of instinct primary!

But with bonitation we don't want to see self-defence, we want to see how the dog evaluates the situation on its own. Self-confident dog with stable character may react in different ways to the attack (whether weak or strong) but should not evaluate contact as attack even if it was attacked previously by the same person... Instinct says to the dog when to run and when to fight if it considers the situation dangerous, but the character says how it will evaluate the situation...

I like weak attack better myself because it better shows the evaluation by the dog - it is easy to evaluate the strong attack as danger allways, but with weak attack lots of self-confident dog evaluate the situation as only potentially dangerous and show the good stability of their character, not attacking prematurely.

BUT, even if attack on a tied dog is not allowed in Italy, I bet they cannot forbid contact of tied dog with owner absent, and that might show a lot about the character, even bringing it close to the Slovak and Czech bonitation. There you can see already how the dog evaluates the situation. Because shy dog will not allow contact, or will shy away from it, while stable dog will either ignore or be positive about it.

I do not understand your mention of politics. As far as I know, the Slovak and Czech bonitations, althogh different, are acknowledged by our breeding commitees. We do not acknowledge the Italian bonitation, for reasons I stated previously, there is no situation where the dog will be evaluating a situation on its own.

Navarre · 10-09-2009, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

BUT, even if attack on a tied dog is not allowed in Italy, I bet they cannot forbid contact of tied dog with owner absent, and that might show a lot about the character,

Uff!
For the last time : CAL, ZTP, IPO ans so on, ARE allowed in Italy. Leaving a dog alone and attack him is allowed too.

woland77 · 11-09-2009, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

But with bonitation we don't want to see self-defence, we want to see how the dog evaluates the situation on its own. Self-confident dog with stable character may react in different ways to the attack (whether weak or strong) but should not evaluate contact as attack even if it was attacked previously by the same person... Instinct says to the dog when to run and when to fight if it considers the situation dangerous, but the character says how it will evaluate the situation...

I like weak attack better myself because it better shows the evaluation by the dog - it is easy to evaluate the strong attack as danger allways, but with weak attack lots of self-confident dog evaluate the situation as only potentially dangerous and show the good stability of their character, not attacking prematurely.

BUT, even if attack on a tied dog is not allowed in Italy, I bet they cannot forbid contact of tied dog with owner absent, and that might show a lot about the character, even bringing it close to the Slovak and Czech bonitation. There you can see already how the dog evaluates the situation. Because shy dog will not allow contact, or will shy away from it, while stable dog will either ignore or be positive about it.

I do not understand your mention of politics. As far as I know, the Slovak and Czech bonitations, althogh different, are acknowledged by our breeding commitees. We do not acknowledge the Italian bonitation, for reasons I stated previously, there is no situation where the dog will be evaluating a situation on its own.

Hi Saschia, mention of politic are not about your post ( with seriuos consideration) but about more other post!
I understand is no possible for you recognized Italian Bonitation for big differences, my dog's have on the same time Czech/Slovak bonitation and Italian bonitation. But i think is better to think a new test for all.
Yes, test with dog at pole without owner, and without threat is recognized, on ZTP test (recognized bt ENCI for Dobermann and Rottweiler) there are a pole test, on my reply (n°53) on this thread i explane this. On this test we can know self-defense border line, and is very important on all breed than have sensible character.
With threat the dog at the pole, i think is so dificult to distinguish how the reaction come from primary istinct (self denfence/drain), or real character of dog...primary istinct are on all dog, on all animal world and are not important for character selection because selection can doing minimun change on this...is a very complex debate, but i think is necessary to talk about this to evolve character test for CZW.

woland77 · 10-09-2009, 13:08

In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole! Is allowed ZTP test, but on this test is without threaten! Reaction of dog when is alone at the pole, is self-defence, and this is normal for 99% of dogs. Shy dog can have self-defence reaction, balanced dog can have self-defence reaction, agressive dog can have self-defence reaction... The mimicry of the dog in self-defense is the same for both the dog's courage, for that balance and the shy. At the pole we can know the self-defence border (very important, self-defence is the first reason of bite), but without threaten, like ZTP.
The pole test like Czech-Slovak bonitation has meaning only in the selection of the military 30 years ago. All test bonitation, Italian too, are insufficient for a real character selection, on a work breed...How many years you have this code selection for character? Where are the working dogs results? Only a few dogs, for great desire of the owners, These results are almost never traceable to the choice of codes of bonitation!
I am convinced that now is the time to end up with these political issues, and is the moment to start with a real character selection for work dog, we need help from other breed, the CZW are very close...on other breed i have seen real result on 3-4 generation, with real test. Is moment to open the eyes!!

martiou07 · 10-09-2009, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by woland77

In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole! Is allowed ZTP test, but on this test is without threaten! Reaction of dog when is alone at the pole, is self-defence, and this is normal for 99% of dogs. Shy dog can have self-defence reaction, balanced dog can have self-defence reaction, agressive dog can have self-defence reaction... The mimicry of the dog in self-defense is the same for both the dog's courage, for that balance and the shy. At the pole we can know the self-defence border (very important, self-defence is the first reason of bite), but without threaten, like ZTP.
The pole test like Czech-Slovak bonitation has meaning only in the selection of the military 30 years ago. All test bonitation, Italian too, are insufficient for a real character selection, on a work breed...How many years you have this code selection for character? Where are the working dogs results? Only a few dogs, for great desire of the owners, These results are almost never traceable to the choice of codes of bonitation!
I am convinced that now is the time to end up with these political issues, and is the moment to start with a real character selection for work dog, we need help from other breed, the CZW are very close...on other breed i have seen real result on 3-4 generation, with real test. Is moment to open the eyes!!

is true, as you say it, the test of Italian nature can give to the same result an apprehensive dog or balanced.

That is completely different from the tests Slovaques and Czech, it is well damage which you cannot make these tests in Italy ...... In France, the wolfhound is interdict of discipline of corrosive, the first bonitation in France was a test, the club was a little refractory.
However, they note from now on that these tests are very interesting…

woland77 · 10-09-2009, 13:32

Maybe my english is very bad, i say: "on self-defence all type of dog have result very similar, not truly result". On Italian test self-defence is not tested...with threaten dog alone at pole when can't judge the self-defence border. On ZTP test when can have a result of self-defence border. We must to look result on Dobermann character problem (self-defence, sensibility) about 1980,1990 dogs, are been resolved by pole test of ZTP. I think we need the same on CZW!

Navarre · 10-09-2009, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by woland77

In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole!

Sorry Alessio, this is NOT true. Really.

woland77 · 10-09-2009, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navarre

Sorry Alessio, this is NOT true. Really.

Maybe is allowed by normal law, but ENCI not recognized this, i'm sure! Ask to Gianni!

Navarre · 10-09-2009, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by woland77

Maybe is allowed by normal law, but ENCI not recognized this, i'm sure! Ask to Gianni!

Ah, ok!
I read "illegal" so I made a mistake.

For italian club was more easy to request to ENCI torecognize a test that was already recognized, as CAL, I know well, because we were in the club and we made the request!

But if club wants, he can propose (and wait longer for approvation) any specific test.

But I agree with Saschia, italian test IS different, so don't call it "bonitace" and give different code, like the good old "approved" and "not approved".

martiou07 · 10-09-2009, 13:49

in France, the threats on a dog prohibited with corrosive should not also be authorized, but the club does what is necessary so that France evolves/moves by taking account of the practices of the creative countries…

considering the number of wolfhound in your country, the club can make this it is necessary so that you can make the bonitations as in the other countries.

or then, is this voluntary on behalf of the club can be ........???

10-09-2009, 12:17	#1
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	Massimo, we speak about diferent bonitation, Yet I know who is in Italy. And yet have me personel opinion who is who. OFF about dogs: About dogs without owner and when he is leaving. I am in breed about 10-13 year, but i NOT going to others dogs, who is not me personel owned dogs, maybe I have moore brain or instinct. This is not me dog, and normal dogs reaction is bite. Speak with Pavel, he say this same. and in Pozna memorial is test - dogs not mas accept other people when is alone, he mas defence self. If speak about me personel dogs, yes he is training for this and better not going to my nice, wolfy doggy when he is alone leaving hard situation in ours land and I mas have real working dogs in my house in others camp make special table- "Danger!!! lithuania piranias" p.s. about this I speak and writte not one time and You mas member this from others thema __________________ Last edited by wolfin; 10-09-2009 at 12:22. Reason: p.s.

10-09-2009, 13:31	#4
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	OK, so quick overview: 1. The Slovak bonitation contains contact and weak attack by strange person with the owner absent 2. The Czech bonitation contains meeting of group of people with the dog on leash, and then contact and strong attack with the owner first present but not holding the dog and then again absent. 3. Italian bonitation contains meeting of group of people on the leash and then strong attack with owner holding the dog. There are two main differences among these 3 types in my opinion: 1. Bonitations 1 and 2 contain contact and attack on dog without owner present. This shows how the dog reacts when on its own. Bonitation 3 does not show this at all. 2. Bonitations 2 and 3 show behavior with owner present. The meeting of group is a good thing but not vital, as the dog during the measurements reacts to strange people with owner present so the judge can see this. So the bonitation 1 also shows the behavior of dog with owner present. Therefore, if we take into account Sonya's word that the attack doesn't have to be strong to show the character, then there is no important difference between bonitations 1 and 2 and we can use the same code. On the other hand, although bonitation 3 shows strong attack similar to bonitation 2, the owner is not only present, but is holding the dog. This creates even stronger influence of the presence of the owner, the dog feeling that he has both moral and physical support behind it (this is actually used for defence training - the owner holds the leash tightly to not loose physical contact with the dog), and actually having something else to protect except itself. With animals there is a distance limit, where the defense behavior changes from escape to fight. This distance is fairly short with wolves and dogs, so if the dog is attacked and afraid, it will try to run from even small distances. But with the owner on the other side of leash the distance limit may change and affect the dogs behavior. Therefore I don't think the bonitation 3 should use the same codes as bonitations 1 and 2. What I said here doesn't mean that the bonitations shows the dog character perfectly - far from it. But we didn't find any better way yet. But there is a big difference between 1+2 and 3, while only a small difference between 1 and 2. I see the overview was not that quick ;o); __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

10-09-2009, 13:38	#6
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	khmm, Polish not have a club, Lithuania have __________________

10-09-2009, 13:49	#17
martiou07 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,986	in France, the threats on a dog prohibited with corrosive should not also be authorized, but the club does what is necessary so that France evolves/moves by taking account of the practices of the creative countries… considering the number of wolfhound in your country, the club can make this it is necessary so that you can make the bonitations as in the other countries. or then, is this voluntary on behalf of the club can be ........??? __________________

10-09-2009, 13:08	#11
woland77 Gran figl de putt Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,638	In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole! Is allowed ZTP test, but on this test is without threaten! Reaction of dog when is alone at the pole, is self-defence, and this is normal for 99% of dogs. Shy dog can have self-defence reaction, balanced dog can have self-defence reaction, agressive dog can have self-defence reaction... The mimicry of the dog in self-defense is the same for both the dog's courage, for that balance and the shy. At the pole we can know the self-defence border (very important, self-defence is the first reason of bite), but without threaten, like ZTP. The pole test like Czech-Slovak bonitation has meaning only in the selection of the military 30 years ago. All test bonitation, Italian too, are insufficient for a real character selection, on a work breed...How many years you have this code selection for character? Where are the working dogs results? Only a few dogs, for great desire of the owners, These results are almost never traceable to the choice of codes of bonitation! I am convinced that now is the time to end up with these political issues, and is the moment to start with a real character selection for work dog, we need help from other breed, the CZW are very close...on other breed i have seen real result on 3-4 generation, with real test. Is moment to open the eyes!!

10-09-2009, 13:32	#13
woland77 Gran figl de putt Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,638	Maybe my english is very bad, i say: "on self-defence all type of dog have result very similar, not truly result". On Italian test self-defence is not tested...with threaten dog alone at pole when can't judge the self-defence border. On ZTP test when can have a result of self-defence border. We must to look result on Dobermann character problem (self-defence, sensibility) about 1980,1990 dogs, are been resolved by pole test of ZTP. I think we need the same on CZW!