Differences in bonitations...

[Mikael]

Way do we have bonitation at all if we dont follow the same rules ???

and now to me it seams that a show resalt would say more...

on a show a dog whit "Untypical movement" or "Open libs" would not get a god spot, I hope !!!

But I do realy think 64cm is not the bigest question, to me it is more important that the dogs that we breed on are healthy.

Regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

As far as I know sometimes dogs with 1 cm (!) under standart high are bonitated - if they don´t have other faults - and allowed to breed once under special control of the offsprings. The reason is that many small dogs have offspring of normal high (and the other way round).
Something that I find quite sensible, as Mikael I think there are more important things than 1cm of heigh and I think bad movements for example are of much higher importance for the breed itself.
Another questions is if the dog should get a P3 or P5 then.

And I personally think it is more than time to stop the very stupid discussion if the Czech Club is doing things better or the Slovakian one. The same started in the health topic, the Slovakian Club has a breeding comission like the Czech has and the wonderful Czech breeding comission has made some decisions I only can wonder about. Both countries have their problems and have made their faults. I am really fed up with this, it is of absolutly no benefit for the breed.
And there was a Czech member in the breeding comission as far as I can see.

Ina

[Vaiva]

In fact I do not see such a big problem in that 1 cm If a male has a good character, is brave, nice with people, moves good and is a typical CsV, that 1 cm is nothing

[Mirkawolf]

My point is, for what are the bonitations good then, if the results are not respected, or cannot be compared. If I cannot compare results from Pozna to results from CR or Slovakia or Germany or wherever, because there had been some excuses or changes made on either side, what good does it do to bonitate? How do we ever convince new owners of wolfdogs to bonitate, if they see the results are being manipulated, excused or cheated?

If we do not follow the standard anymore, then where will the breed end up?
Who is going to decide, if 1 cm up or down matters? Or maybe a tooth missing, or other disqualifying faults? The standard has been made for some reason. And I find it very benevolent already.

There is only so much disqualifying faults and if they are not respected, then soon the wolfdogs won´t look like wolfdogs anymore. For the friends of miniature wolfdogs, I have bad news - there is already a small dog breed existing, that looks like little wolfdog - it´s called Swedish Vallhund. So no new breeding in this direction is needed.

Puppy Swedish Vallhund:

[massimo]

Vaiva, Ina.
I also agree that 1 cm should not change much in breeding.
My dog is 73cm and his father is P14... he is 64.5cm tall... 0.50cm below limit!
But this is not the point. I am not asking for opinions (I have my own), I'm asking for rules, facts.
Is 1 cm acceptable to give the dog a mark which is not P14 according to slovak breeding committee?
From what I knew it was ok for females (if below 60cm, it could be P5 if all the rest was ok) but for males it was strict.
But maybe i'm wrong, maybe this has changed!

I don't think that 1 cm will change much in the product the dog makes.
But...if the limiti is 65cm, he could get P14 and the breeding committe could decide, for certain females, if it is worth using that dog anyway.
It is not new that many czechs using males from other countries without bonitation because it is not a requirement in the country of origin.
From what I know it is not a requirement in ANY other country than Czech and Slovakia...so why should people bother to bonitate their dog after all?....
Why should stupid Italians bonitate their dogs if anyway somebody has decided that bonitation in Italy is not valid...
Better a dog from another country without bonitation than a dog from Italy with bonitation made by somebody's public enemy...
Why? because of the character test. But character test I saw in Slovakia was, according to my eyes (now personal opinion) less effective than the one made in Italy...
I'm fed up with this long time ago Ina...
massimo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I don´t want to start here with Charactertests it will bring us very much off topic. But maybe the owner or the breeder of the dog or the breeding comission can explain why they decided to give it a P3.

Charactertest will bring us totally of topic because then we will have to discuss the difficulties in doing it with defense trained dogs and not defense trained ones and using both behaviour in messurement and in the test itself. I have seen both versions and for me as a behavourist the so called "real threatening" in the Czech version is a normal training situation for the trained dog, knowing how most of the dogs are trained, nothing to do with a threat. In the Czech bonitation I saw, there have been dogs that were so fear aggressiv that they could only be meassured of the owner and hat to be muzzeld still. They got good results in the Charactertest because they attacked like hell being threatened of a known figurant in training dress with a training stick having learned that is the most sensible thing to do.
Our dog reacting absolutely cool all the time but not reacting on the threat at all because being trained to do so since his whole life, got a less courage, not being afraid for one second. For me, knowing about learning theories, this has not been a charactertest of any use but simply a selection on fear aggression.
This is the real problem in bonitation, not 1 cm that show up in the bonitation code and are visible for everybody, together with a lot of cases where visible mistakes that don´t get meassured like not correct ears, bad mask, bad back line ore angulation that didn´t get mentioned in the code of some dogs out of whatever reason.

But I don´t see any sense in not doing a bonitation just because it isn´t perfect. For me it still is at least some information about the dog for all people knowing about it. And a sign of a breeder that at least tries to follow some rules.
And I too have my problems with bonitations like some Swizz ones where dogs with a code full of several severe mistakes got P1, I think it is correct not to accept these bonitations.

Ina

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As far as I know sometimes dogs with 1 cm (!) under standart high are bonitated - if they don´t have other faults - and allowed to breed once under special control of the offsprings. The reason is that many small dogs have offspring of normal high (and the other way round).

Its the basic problem. Breding commision have roghts to let breeding on ANY dog, if is necessary. ANY means e.g. dog with heavy HD or P14 in code. But in this cases is using such dog limited abd the offsprings are under control. But if dog with disqualified fault get code P1-5, then nobody have rights limited the breeder such dog using without control. Little other situation is in CZ or SK, where any pair must have agreement from breeding commision and nobody can registrate puppies without sign of club. But in the countries, where is breed absolutelly free, is it very danger praxis.