Differences in bonitations...

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by *Satu

On, Skandinavian judges can´t do that for own breeded dogs (dogs from their kennel)

FCI judges have 6 month rules... I think?

Rules have same in all FCI countries.

and results looks little bit reliadle if rules can be different.....

yes, be 6 monts termin.

[massimo]

now...returning to the initial reason of discussion, there is still an open question nobody has really answered to.
1) in slovak and czech officially recognized bonitations.
Is the lower height limit of 65cm a STRICT limit under which a dog will SURELY get P14?
I know for sure because I asked Sona Bognarova the lower limit of 60cm is NOT strict for females and they can get a P5 code if 1cm less and everything else is ok.
Is this the same for males in SK? in CZ?
As Oskar Dora is one of the most titled specialized living CSW judges, either the reply is YES for Slovakia or the reply is NO for slovakia and it was an ecception for Poland Bonitation. I suppose there was no special Polish bonitation and it is allowed in Slovakia. Anybody can reply from CZ?

my personal opinion (so it means nothing ) is that they should get P14 but P14 should be allowed to breed in special conditions monitored by the club.
Otherwise 73cm dogs risk the chance not to be born from 64,5cm ones...

I will add just another comment for those who have never seen a bonitation: Height on Bonitation is just the height measured by the judge during the bonitation.
It is NOT NECESSARILY correct, 1 or even 2 cm sometimes are "lost" because the dog is not in correct position and bending down.
The opposite can also happen: If you have a 58-59cm female, it is quite easy to make her become 61cm... I've seen it with my own eyes. It is not correct too, but it saves the dog from being disqualified from breeding (and It is a pity)
I agree with Margo, Px factor is sometimes not good.
Just make a list of defects, disqualifying and light, and result should be OK for breeding or NOT ok for breeding.
Massimo

[Margo]

Originally Posted by massimo

I will add just another comment for those who have never seen a bonitation: Height on Bonitation is just the height measured by the judge during the bonitation.
It is NOT NECESSARILY correct, 1 or even 2 cm sometimes are "lost" because the dog is not in correct position and bending down.
The opposite can also happen: If you have a 58-59cm female, it is quite easy to make her become 61cm... I've seen it with my own eyes. It is not correct too, but it saves the dog from being disqualified from breeding (and It is a pity)

Sure - but if it is right? Was it really better to make the same in Pozna and ask Oskar "Please write Daimon A65 or A66 because it will look NICER and nobody will make any problems beause of it"? Of course Oskar would not make it for us but as you wrote - in MANY cases it is made like this expacially in Czech Republic in order to "save the dog from being disqualified from breeding".
But when we will hide the size you know what will happen? An owner with the STANDARD male (65 cm on the papers but 64 in reality) will cover a STANDARD female (61 in papers and 58 in reality) and the new puppy owners will be SHOCKED how it is possible their puppy is only 55 cm....

It is REALLY better to write the real data to the bonitation cards because when the data is faulsed (f.e. small dogs has been added some cm of height or very small dogs (much under minimum) are hidden by their owners so nobody can see they are much too small but people breed with them) than you have no improvement by the whole breed and sometimes breeders which really want to do their best and use only good dogs are cheated and unconscious use dogs with SERIOUS DISQUALIFYING FAULTS (because in many cases they have NO idea they use dog or buy a puppy from CzW which do not have for example the typical height).

[massimo]

For stat lovers (it took me long time...i don't have access to Database like Margo! )
Below standard males and females on WD
Males

Name Code Place County Date Judge Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK 23/5/98 Dora Flint Ju¾ná èast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK 13/7/96 F. Rosik Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ 26/4/08 Dora Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK 17/5/03 Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ 6/10/07 Dora Celt Fonèorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hrièov SK 28/11/98 Bognarova Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hrièov SK 12/11/00 Dora
Females

Name Code Place County Date Judge Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK 14/8/99 F. Rosik Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK 13/7/96 F. Rosik Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97 Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 ®ilina - Strá¾ova CZ 23/11/96 Dora Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK 15/8/98 F. Rosik Antea z Dubnièanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK 29/10/94 Elys spod Ïumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK 19/4/08 Dora

CZ dogs below standard, both males and females, were ALWAYS P14 (except for once, but judge was Dora...)
So, I suppose I already have a reply: CZ are strict to the cm, slovaks not.

[massimo]

Sorry, came out really bad!

Males

Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK23/5/98 Dora
Flint Južná čast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ26/4/08 Dora Atos Brevnovská stopa CS A64 Oc R1 P5 Hostivice CZ25/4/93 Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK17/5/03
Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ6/10/07 Dora
Celt Fončorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK28/11/98 Bognarova
Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK12/11/00 Dora

Females

Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK14/8/99 F. Rosik
Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97
Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 Zilina - Strázova CZ23/11/96 Dora
Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK15/8/98 F. Rosik
Antea z Dubničanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK29/10/94
Elys spod Ďumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK19/4/08 Dora

[Margo]

Originally Posted by massimo

Males

Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK23/5/98 Dora
Flint Južná čast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ26/4/08 Dora
Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK17/5/03
Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ6/10/07 Dora
Celt Fončorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK28/11/98 Bognarova
Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK12/11/00 Dora

Females

Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK14/8/99 F. Rosik
Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97
Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 Zilina - Strázova CZ23/11/96 Dora
Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK15/8/98 F. Rosik
Antea z Dubničanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK29/10/94
Elys spod Ďumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK19/4/08 Dora

CZ dogs below standard, both males and females, were ALWAYS P14 (except for once, but judge was Dora...)
So, I suppose I already have a reply: CZ are strict to the cm, slovaks not.

In the case of Gyra you right BUT see Atos Brevnovská stopa CS (A64 Oc R1 P5 Hostivice CZ 25/4/93). Some dogs get really P14 but not ONLY because of the height but also because they have also other serious faults: for example by Leonardo you have additionaly shy character and wrong bite. By some other dogs it can be also wrong indexes which are not visible but counted for the end note...

[wolfin]

Massimo, about help. Handler helped not only Geryon or Gorbi, this have also Alpestre, and Gema and moore dogs. And all be ok. For Margo it is not first bonitation and she is perfect handler for this.

About electric collar - who have this in bonitation?

I HAVE this and i going with them to training and make this with Malik (an he help me training better Geryons comands).
But el.collar not be ussed in boniation, or maybe you have facts and photo about this?

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by massimo

I know for sure because I asked Sona Bognarova the lower limit of 60cm is NOT strict for females and they can get a P5 code if 1cm less and everything else is ok.
Is this the same for males in SK? in CZ?

We know just many years is by Slovakian club not strictly limit. Why, can everybody think about . Standard dont give the alternative. I still believe that word "minimum" have always same sense - less is not possible. Or have somebody other sense of this word ?

Originally Posted by massimo

As Oskar Dora is one of the most titled specialized living CSW judges, either the reply is YES for Slovakia or the reply is NO for slovakia and it was an ecception for Poland Bonitation. I suppose there was no special Polish bonitation and it is allowed in Slovakia. Anybody can reply from CZ?

Nobody's perfect. Oskar is freind of my, but he make the bonitation in the slovakian "borders". Generally are CZ and SK bonitation build on same principles, but still exist the differences. Bonitations always developed. 30 years ago looks the bonitation little other, then today.
I critise e.g., that in Pozna were 2 dogs by bonitations shy. And Oskar dont write P14, but breaks the bonitation. Why, when every dog have oficially chance repeat once the character test of bonitation and change the code ?

Originally Posted by massimo

my personal opinion (so it means nothing ) is that they should get P14 but P14 should be allowed to breed in special conditions monitored by the club.

Massimo many times we have totally other meanings, but this your words can I sign 100%.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Pavel

I critise e.g., that in Pozna were 2 dogs by bonitations shy. And Oskar dont write P14, but breaks the bonitation. Why, when every dog have oficially chance repeat once the character test of bonitation and change the code ?

It is exactly because of the difference of slovakian bonitation... In Slovakia you judge everything. Not only character test but also how the dog behaves whole time (also during the measurements). So it is not possible to make the character test ONLY - you have to repeat whole bonitation.
In the case of the dogs the bonitation have been broken and will be finished later (maybe soon). So the dogs can repeat ONLY the character test...

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Margo

It is exactly because of the difference of slovakian bonitation... In Slovakia you judge everything. Not only character test but also how the dog behaves whole time (also during the measurements).

Its same in CZ. But every dog have chance, beacuse we know, that shyness by many dogs is not genetics, "only" bad socialisation. Of course, that repeat character test testing both parts, but measurements are just ready and dont changing.

[Huan]

Originally Posted by Pavel

We know just many years is by Slovakian club not strictly limit. Why, can everybody think about . Standard dont give the alternative. I still believe that word "minimum" have always same sense - less is not possible. Or have somebody other sense of this word ?

Right.. but... it means that males 65cm tall and higher are typical and below 65cm are too short. It's only up to the judge to evaluate how big fault the 1cm is for him. It's obviously a fault according to standard but the same is with dark eyes, big ears, wrong body indexes. It's written "minimum 65cm" but it also written for example "Length of muzzle : Length of cranial region : 1 : 1.5" ... so what's about it? Does it mean that dog with the proportions of 1:1,49 should be disqualified or maybe 1:1,45?? Or 1:1,33?? It's up to the judge... "minimum 65cm" means that the judge has no right to say that the dog with 65,5cm is too short. It's typical according to standard since it 65cm or higher.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Przemek

Right.. but... it means that males 65cm tall and higher are typical and below 65cm are too short. It's only up to the judge to evaluate how big fault the 1cm is for him.

Sorry Przemek, you are not right. 65 cm by males and 60 cm by females are MINIMUM. So says standard. Its not about "typical" or not. Its MINIMUM.

Originally Posted by Przemek

It's obviously a fault according to standard but the same is with dark eyes, big ears, wrong body indexes. It's written "minimum 65cm" but it also written for example "Length of muzzle : Length of cranial region : 1 : 1.5" ... so what's about it? Does it mean that dog with the proportions of 1:1,49 should be disqualified or maybe 1:1,45?? Or 1:1,33?? It's up to the judge... "minimum 65cm" means that the judge has no right to say that the dog with 65,5cm is too short. It's typical according to standard since it 65cm or higher.

By e.g. body format is not "minimum" border (same by head format). Its written in faults, whats is wrong. Andy by this two mesurements must judge valuate, but by hight is it clear "minimum" is "minimum". And if dog dont reach minimum high, according not to standard and must get P14.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Pavel

By e.g. body format is not "minimum" border (same by head format)..

But you have PROPORTIONS. Wrong proportions -> DISQUALIFICATION. But see the reality... Even dachshound can be sometimes P1.

Originally Posted by Pavel

Its written in faults, whats is wrong. Andy by this two mesurements must judge valuate, but by hight is it clear "minimum" is "minimum". And if dog dont reach minimum high, according not to standard and must get P14.

Maximum of the ears is 1/6 of the heigh. If it is more then -> wrong proportions of the ears -> P14 also... So why we can see dogs with F2 and P1 (excellent)?
And there are MANY examples like this....

So far the problem is that some people CHOOSED some faults which were more important and made them P14. In CZ you choosed for example the heigh... So far there is no bigger problem with the heigh so I think the Czech breeding comittee should start to watch faults which are EXTREMLY spread by the population like:
- open lips
- heavy heads
- deep and wide chests
- short legs and wrong indexes
Because so far there is no control for this and it is the reason why it is not improving by many lines...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by massimo

I have never seen you train your dogs and I cannot judge you. But if I try to understand these words... Geryon was protecting himself from you, or better, from something you do to him which he doesn't like.

Yes Massimo - it is almost like you say... ALMOST because he was not protecting himself FROM ME, but from being measured by Sona...
In the dog training you have MANY situations where the dog do not want to do something (sometimes because the dog do not know it is good and nice).
What do you do in such cases? Do you say "my dog do not want to be trained"? And you make NOTHING? "CzW are to stupid to be trained because my dog don't want to do anything and I will not "forse" him to do things he don't like"? Or you show him that training (or bontation) is nothing wrong and dangerous and can be even nice and funny?

In such cases I find always some methods to "forse" the dog (with motivation like snacks, good words, aso.). In Hronec I could give up with Geryon (STUPID DOG DON'T WANT TO BE TOUCHED AND I RESPECT IT) but I think MUCH BETTER solution was just to say him some nice words, to stroke him and show "Sona and bonitation can be cool things".

If you will always give up by training with CzW you will never reach anything... Also not by me - I need much more POSITIVE motivation (like the perfect red wine from Italy) to make some things (like update of the database) earlier than planned...

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by massimo

my personal opinion (so it means nothing ) is that they should get P14 but P14 should be allowed to breed in special conditions monitored by the club.
Otherwise 73cm dogs risk the chance not to be born from 64,5cm ones...
Massimo

Funny that is my pesenal opinion to 1cm difference on some parts of a man makes a small difference thank god !!!

I think it is better that we are harder on real problems like HD/ED and hereditary diseases instead !!! like demand DNA tests by 2010 ???

Regards / Mikael

[jasmine]

This is the "differences in bonitations " topic......."health of the breed" is another topic.....of course you are absolutly right...health is very important.........
but here not this is the main point...and not the 1 cm................

[Mikael]

this Thread "differences in bonitations" had 90 inputs on only 36 hour

is that a forum record ???


Regards / Mikael