"List" of typical csv cross defect?

[elf]

Another growing problem is csv cross breed raising number, meanwhile DNA check, what would be a "list" of typical csv cross defect ? a data base of pictures of crossed csv ? My dog is crossed (yes I know I'm a bad guy), I showed her at two french judges which belived she was pure breed (even with the ears... but I also saw "strange" ears in pure csv). Here are some pics for experts, could you made the error as these two judges did ? (try to forget she is crossed while looking for defect)

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=14
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=16
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=17
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=22

[Margo]

Zitat von elf

My dog is crossed (yes I know I'm a bad guy), I showed her at two french judges which belived she was pure breed (even with the ears... but I also saw "strange" ears in pure csv). Here are some pics for experts, could you made the error as these two judges did ?

They do not make mistake... Basing on the pictures I will also say it is a CzW. Sure there are some things which are not typical for CzW but believe me I know many CzW which are 100% purebreed which look much more different from CzW as your dog...

Dark eyes, rouder ears of black mask is still pretty common problem. What is easier to see are dogs which are crosses with Nordic breeds (like huskies), Saarloos or American Wolves because the masks are different than by typical CzW. Such crosses have "oculars" (typical for huskies, not known by CzW) and also the mask is only on the top of the nose - this cross is the best example:



Similar results you get while crossing CzW and Saarlos.

When you cross CzW with Husky the dogs look in many cases similar but have smaller ears...

[elf]

Well... it makes things really difficult for the future because in France we have more and more crosses that can become "real" csv with the "titre initial".

[saschia]

Zitat von elf

A My dog is crossed (yes I know I'm a bad guy)...

You are not bad guy for giving a dog a home. You may be a not much responsible guy if you produce cross litter and you really are a bad guy if you produce a cross litter and falsify their papers to proclaim them as pure blood... So which one are you? ;o)

[Hanka]

FUJ Saschia

[saschia]

Zitat von Hanka

FUJ Saschia

Sorry, falsify is a dirty word? My apologies... ;o)

[elf]

Zitat von saschia

You are not bad guy for giving a dog a home. You may be a not much responsible guy if you produce cross litter and you really are a bad guy if you produce a cross litter and falsify their papers to proclaim them as pure blood... So which one are you? ;o)

Угадай!

[saschia]

Zitat von elf

Угадай!

Well, then I guess than that you are just a guy, not irresponsible nor bad... Who either speaks russian or uses online translators

[Mikael]

Zitat von elf

Угадай!

And fore us ho do not know russian, Угадай means Guess

Regards / Mikael

[elf]

Zitat von saschia

Well, then I guess than that you are just a guy, not irresponsible nor bad... Who either speaks russian or uses online translators

We speak half russian home, even my dog .

[solowolf]

Zitat von elf

Another growing problem is csv cross breed raising number, meanwhile DNA check, what would be a "list" of typical csv cross defect ? a data base of pictures of crossed csv ? My dog is crossed (yes I know I'm a bad guy), I showed her at two french judges which belived she was pure breed (even with the ears... but I also saw "strange" ears in pure csv). Here are some pics for experts, could you made the error as these two judges did ? (try to forget she is crossed while looking for defect)

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=14
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=16
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=17
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=22

glad you bring this subject up as problem in Europe I was to believe looking at this web site it was only problem in u.k., ?? people will cross dogs no mater what and nothing we can do about it, the big problem in Europe is people who cross breed then register the puppies as pure CVS, I now know by looking at many pics and your info on this topic that this is going on in Europe, we are more lucky in uk as we know the people doing this but it is impossable to register such dogs, I have talks soon with kennel club before i proceed to put CVS up for recognition as law has changed in uk. I also see over the years on this site more and more questions on health issues in the CVS, In uk I want all CVS must have health cheeks done before breeding age, dogs that have problems will not have there breeding restrictions lifted if they fail any test and so any pups that may get breed by these dogs can never have pedigree, sure it will be hard but at least it is good start for breed in u.k., yes i have sold dogs to people who have now cross breed but they signed papers with me on sale of pups that they would never do this, but i can not control this as the breeders in Europe can not control it either, we can not see into the future, we can not know when selling a pup what people will do, we can only meet the people and from what they tell us we decide to sell pup or not,, it is a thing that every breeder will do, the dogs i have sold that have been used by people who gross bred i am not responsable for what they do, but as the breeder when the breed does get recognition i can if i want choose not to register the litter with the kennel club, this would mean there dogs even though they are pure CSV will never have pedigrees.....then they learn not to break promise and cross breed the CVS with other breeds. pacino kennels

[GalomyOak]

Zitat von solowolf

glad you bring this subject up as problem in Europe I was to believe looking at this web site it was only problem in u.k., ?? people will cross dogs no mater what and nothing we can do about it, the big problem in Europe is people who cross breed then register the puppies as pure CVS, I now know by looking at many pics and your info on this topic that this is going on in Europe, we are more lucky in uk as we know the people doing this but it is impossable to register such dogs, I have talks soon with kennel club before i proceed to put CVS up for recognition as law has changed in uk. I also see over the years on this site more and more questions on health issues in the CVS, In uk I want all CVS must have health cheeks done before breeding age, dogs that have problems will not have there breeding restrictions lifted if they fail any test and so any pups that may get breed by these dogs can never have pedigree, sure it will be hard but at least it is good start for breed in u.k., yes i have sold dogs to people who have now cross breed but they signed papers with me on sale of pups that they would never do this, but i can not control this as the breeders in Europe can not control it either, we can not see into the future, we can not know when selling a pup what people will do, we can only meet the people and from what they tell us we decide to sell pup or not,, it is a thing that every breeder will do, the dogs i have sold that have been used by people who gross bred i am not responsable for what they do, but as the breeder when the breed does get recognition i can if i want choose not to register the litter with the kennel club, this would mean there dogs even though they are pure CSV will never have pedigrees.....then they learn not to break promise and cross breed the CVS with other breeds. pacino kennels

Thank you for this...I have the same fears about the CSV in the US, that it will end up in the hands of someone who will use it for crossbreeding, and affect the reputation and/or the genepool of CSVs here, eventually. I don't think anyone says that these crosses happen only in the UK - there is a higher concentration considering the small amount of dogs in the UK, I believe, and some of the UK crossbreeders openly boast about their practices on their websites, whereas other crossbreeders elsewhere keep their practices a little more hidden. I think maybe the best way to prevent crossbreeding is to be transparent, open, and honest as CSV owners and breeders, and not try to hide things, even if they are our own mistakes. If we see something strange outside of our own homes and kennels, I don't think it is wrong to question it. If there is nothing to hide, then the truth should prevail, and there is no problem.

Paul, I've asked you before, and now again - who are the CSVs in the UK that you know of, where are they, and who owns them? Have some of the UK CSVs come to the US?

Marcy

[wolfin]

Only DNA test help for You in UK and USA.
who speak breeder... not all thime be true. And if I mas buy pupps from UK, only with DNA test. (like and in others countrys )

[elf]

Zitat von wolfin

Only DNA test help for You in UK and USA.
who speak breeder... not all thime be true. And if I mas buy pupps from UK, only with DNA test. (like and in others countrys )

I would add that I would be very careful of the blood taken policies as there are laboratories that accept blood samples taken by the breeder. You need to have an official vet involved who will check dogs identification.

[elf]

Another existing problem: incompatibility between laboratories from different countries which don't use same markers.

[wolfin]

Yes, but we cann make this in this same laboratorium.
when we mas make DNA in Lithua, we send all info and blood to Germany laboratorium, and if we cann send in this laboratorium, I think all test we cann make in one laboratorium or have list, who have this same markers, and send in this.

[GalomyOak]

Zitat von wolfin

Only DNA test help for You in UK and USA.
who speak breeder... not all thime be true. And if I mas buy pupps from UK, only with DNA test. (like and in others countrys )

Oh yes, I will definitely "do my research" when I buy or breed - for myself. Here is the problem: The AKC requires DNA testing before registering litters from foreign born litters. But after that, if both parents are born in the US, no DNA test is required to register with the AKC - only the pedigrees of the dam/sire have to be sent in, no DNA tests, no health results, no show or training results. This system is very flawed, and while it may never be a problem for my own eventual breeding program, it could become a huge issue for the breed overall in the US, especially if a dishonest breeder registers a crossed litter as pure, and one of the dogs bites or attacks someone - it would be a huge scandal.

This is the reason I try to know as much about the dogs in the US and Canada as I can. I want to know about the dogs in the UK too, because many Americans look to the UK next as a place to import CSVs from - not because of the quality of dogs, or any other good reason, but mainly because they are scared of the language barrier, and don't realize that many people outside of the UK in Europe also speak perfectly good English...

All the best,
Marcy

[wolfin]

hmmm, if people have problem with language.... and... only this problem to import CSW... I scare, who wolfdog be in US?

but I think (sorry if not be ) problem in people mentalitet, I be from Lithua, me first bitch be from Czech Republik- we speak in misling language- one word english 2 rusish, other polish, next maybe with dictionary i wright czech, but - we not see in this problem, now I have friend in all Europa and Amerika, and we speak we cann, all language who know be good to dogs owners speak, only You mass WISH .

sorry from OT.

[Nebulosa]

Well... perfectly good english maybe not, its something that almost only who live in the country will be able to do.. and even that not all people.
look here, I think you're the only one wich write english perfectly, and we all are understanding each other. If someone try to talk with me by fone in english I will try do my best possible for we understand each other, wouldn't be a perfect english, but something possible to understand
I know that a have some breeders even in origin country talk and write in english good enough to be possible understand.. something
Is they care for quality surelly the lenguage may not be a true barrier.

[GalomyOak]

Zitat von Nebulosa

Well... perfectly good english maybe not, its something that almost only who live in the country will be able to do.. and even that not all people.
look here, I think you're the only one wich write english perfectly, and we all are understanding each other. If someone try to talk with me by fone in english I will try do my best possible for we understand each other, wouldn't be a perfect english, but something possible to understand
I know that a have some breeders even in origin country talk and write in english good enough to be possible understand.. something
Is they care for quality surelly the lenguage may not be a true barrier.

Of course, Americans looking for good quality will ignore the language barrier...and very truthfully members that don't use English as a first language write better English on wolfdog.org than many Americans I have to deal with (especially as a teacher!) use on a daily basis. Seriously! I admire the English skills on this site! I only wish my French after 8 years of study was as good!

It's those "other" Americans looking for convenience, and those that don't do good research, and do what seems safe or easy, but have plenty of money to spend, that scare me - usually no good breeder would sell to these people, unless they made a mistake, or were lied to. But a crossbreeder (unfortunately there are several in the UK) hungry for money, with no care... I get emails from Americans all the time - people that are scared of foreign language, and looking for a CSV. I use the "opportunity" to teach them a lesson on what to look for in a good breeder, and how owning a CSV is not "easy" or a decision made quickly. And, for those people that seem good and serious and knowledgeable, and are thinking about importing, I assure them language is no problem.