Litters with unknow HD-results: should be removed or not?

[Nebelwölfe]

Originally Posted by massimo

There is no JUDGEMENT on Studs, Bitches or Litter.
It is just MORE direct information to users of this site.
Nobody said that the "green" Group A litter is better than the "red" group C one... just that on the Group A you have more direct information than the group C.

The litter ads should be divided in group A, B and C - depending on if the parents do have HD results and/or bonitation or not - and this should not be a judgement. How real is it, that interested buyers as well as breeders do not assum it as judgement? If dividing litter ads up in groups are not supposed to tell, if a litter is "better" or a breeder ist more responsible than the other - e.g. because the parents in A group are x-rayed and in C group are not - so what sense does it make, to divide them up at all?? Wouldn't the chance be very high, that a grouping would give a "wrong" picture, since the mating with e.g. one or two "bad" bonitated dogs seems to be "better" as a mating, in which maybe only one dog is bonitated - but the breeder knows about the other dog very good?

If database is kept actual - all informations about HD results and bonitation of parents can be found in the litter ads with one click...

[Rona]

Originally Posted by littlepeet

The litter ads should be divided in group A, B and C - depending on if the parents do have HD results and/or bonitation or not - and this should not be a judgement. How real is it, that interested buyers as well as breeders do not assum it as judgement?

This is exactly the point I made earlier! Those, who want to introduce the system may not intend or mean any judgements, but how realistic it is that the potential owners/buyers/ other breeders will not make them anyway...

Although the system seems very rational from the "founders'" point of view, I'm not sure it will bring the required results. The 'red litters' will probably dissapear from WD but it doesn't mean that they won't occur.... In the long run there will be even less information on what is happening to the breed than now.

As I said - this is not my problem, I'm only trying to act devil's advocate

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Mikael

To Nebulosa

I think people will understand that the breeders in America are not abel to bonitate

I also think that a dog from a B-breeder whit good working results are beter than a dog from a A-breeder whit only a bonitation as working (title)

But I do not think we can do the system after you, or other breeders in America
or breeders far away like Finland, Sweden, Israel etc...

I might find my self on the B list one day, and I do not se this as a big problem at all...

It is what is best fore the breed that is important here, nothing else

Regards / Mikael

Mikael, for you, me, Rona, Massimo, Margo and all other well informed person A or B group won't matter, won't be quality signal or any judgement type, will be only a way to separe bonitated dogs to these wich aren't, but for not well informed people or for people wich is recently getting information about breeding, that don't know already how bonitation is done, what is needed for do this, yes, it will matter because for then A will be first class and B second one, with less quality only for be in B.
So, what I, you or Hanka will think about it won't matter because you're informed, you know what is a bonitation and what is needed, but others not. This is the only problem.
Suppossing you will be breeder, so, your kennel, that do things right, that make all exams but unfortunatelly that haven't time enough for make all tryp and bonitate your dogs, you will be the same as any other irresponsible, lazy or "too much occupied for its dogs" kennel that live at side of the original countries and don't have bonitate theyrs dog by fear or lack quality, for not informed people, wich not know genetics, lines and so on, we're all be the same.
I really don't want a different Database for who live far, but I think that have more important things that may be valuated than only bonitation to put a dog in A or B class.

Other important thing, this is a database, so, when more information we get better for us and the breed, by the way I think litters without HD may not be announced, but I think that these litters without HD when not announced not leave futurelly informations for us about the pupies that born. These information can be gold, if in these litter had a displasic dog, if not, how many die and so on, so I don't think the site must be so restrict in the announcement, the good point in all this topic is that divide litters and even breeders by categories will allow everybody announce and fullfill the information about theyrs litters, so, we will have more information here, but, we need think really well before do anything.

But you know... the main goal is kill Przemek working

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Mikael, for you, me, Rona, Massimo, Margo and all other well informed person A or B group won't matter, won't be quality signal or any judgement type, will be only a way to separe bonitated dogs to these wich aren't, but for not well informed people or for people wich is recently getting information about breeding, that don't know already how bonitation is done, what is needed for do this, yes, it will matter because for then A will be first class and B second one, with less quality only for be in B.
So, what I, you or Hanka will think about it won't matter because you're informed, you know what is a bonitation and what is needed, but others not. This is the only problem.
Suppossing you will be breeder, so, your kennel, that do things right, that make all exams but unfortunatelly that haven't time enough for make all tryp and bonitate your dogs, you will be the same as any other irresponsible, lazy or "too much occupied for its dogs" kennel that live at side of the original countries and don't have bonitate theyrs dog by fear or lack quality, for not informed people, wich not know genetics, lines and so on, we're all be the same.
I really don't want a different Database for who live far, but I think that have more important things that may be valuated than only bonitation to put a dog in A or B class.

Other important thing, this is a database, so, when more information we get better for us and the breed, by the way I think litters without HD may not be announced, but I think that these litters without HD when not announced not leave futurelly informations for us about the pupies that born. These information can be gold, if in these litter had a displasic dog, if not, how many die and so on, so I don't think the site must be so restrict in the announcement, the good point in all this topic is that divide litters and even breeders by categories will allow everybody announce and fullfill the information about theyrs litters, so, we will have more information here, but, we need think really well before do anything.

But you know... the main goal is kill Przemek working

Yes I understand what you mean...

The system is not perfect, but I still think it is better than to not
give the buyers any guidance at all

But maby B sounds bad ? And the buyers will se it like a B-class...

Maby group A1 and A2 is better and the breeders whitout
HD tests are to be B breeders ???

Maby both A1 and A2 can be in green and B in yellow or red...

Group A1
Group A2
Group B or Group B

What do you all think about this ???

Best regards / Mikael

[Rona]

But why use A,B or C categories or colours that mean/indicate categories? Why not put letter symbols by the litters, and by clicking at them they would open the explanation, just like it is with the bonitation codes.

BX/BX (would mean both parents bonitated and X-rayed)
BX/X (both parents X-rayed, one additionally bonitated)
X/X (both parents X-rayed, none of them bonitated)
UX/X (one parent without HD result, another X-rayed, none of them bonitated)
UX/BX (one parent unX-rayed, another bonitated and X-rayed)
etc.

In this way boniation would be an important asset of the dog, but it's lack - not a particular disadvantage, HD result - a basic asset but the lack of X , i.e. the UX - an indicated disadvantage.

In this way X/X would be the minimal standard advised to the buyer to look for, and XB/XB - the highest. On the other hand, the system would have more informative character than judgemental.

Any reaction to this?

[Vaiva]

Or maybe it is enought just to do one simple thing - when one opens the information about the litter (any of them - with HD or without it, bonitated or not), he sees big bold letters on the upper part of the page (before the photos of parents), something like: "Attention. HD results are important, because....., pay your attention to the bonitation code, it is important because..." The formulation should be short and clear

Usually people simply do not know how important HD is, also nobody knows about bonitation if had nothing in common with CsW before.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

But why use A,B or C categories or colours that mean/indicate categories? Why not put letter symbols by the litters, and by clicking at them they would open the explanation, just like it is with the bonitation codes.

BX/BX (would mean both parents bonitated and X-rayed)
BX/X (both parents X-rayed, one additionally bonitated)
X/X (both parents X-rayed, none of them bonitated)
UX/X (one parent without HD result, another X-rayed, none of them bonitated)
UX/BX (one parent unX-rayed, another bonitated and X-rayed)
etc.

In this way boniation would be an important asset of the dog, but it's lack - not a particular disadvantage, HD result - a basic asset but the lack of X , i.e. the UX - an indicated disadvantage.

In this way X/X would be the minimal standard advised to the buyer to look for, and XB/XB - the highest. On the other hand, the system would have more informative character than judgemental.

Any reaction to this?

I think a system like that will be very hard fore a new wiewer,
to many codes

Way not keep it simple A, B, C or 1, 2, 3 ???

Regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I think a system like that will be very hard fore a new wiewer,
to many codes

1st code - B (bonitation)
2nd code - X (X-rayed)
3rd code - UX (unX-rayed)

Too many?

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

1st code - B (bonitation)
2nd code - X (X-rayed)
3rd code - UX (unX-rayed)

Too many?

But that is about how it is today, all this imfo you can se but in the maps...

And whit all the combinations of those codes it gets complicated...

In the begining of your post you say BX and in the end you cal the same thing XB...
complicated eaven for you maby

Regards / Mikael

[GalomyOak]

Maybe something like this...

Litters

* Link to article on BONITATION
* Link to article on IMPORTANCE OF HIP DYSPLASIA TESTING

Hip Dysplasia and Bonitation Results Available for both parents
01/01/09 - Kennel A
05/01/09 - Kennel B
04/02/09 - Kennel C

Hip Dysplasia Results Available for both parents
16/01/09 - Kennel A
17/02/09 - Kennel B

Hip Dysplasia and/or Bonitation Results Available for one parent ONLY on wolfdog.org
15/01/09 - Kennel A

No Test Results Available on Wolfdog.org (Maybe available upon request from breeder)
03/01/09 - Kennel A

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

Maybe something like this...

Litters

* Link to article on BONITATION
* Link to article on IMPORTANCE OF HIP DYSPLASIA TESTING

Hip Dysplasia and Bonitation Results Available for both parents
01/01/09 - Kennel A
05/01/09 - Kennel B
04/02/09 - Kennel C

Hip Dysplasia Results Available for both parents
16/01/09 - Kennel A
17/02/09 - Kennel B

Hip Dysplasia and/or Bonitation Results Available for one parent ONLY on wolfdog.org
15/01/09 - Kennel A

No Test Results Available on Wolfdog.org (Maybe available upon request from breeder)
03/01/09 - Kennel A

I think it looks good, but is it hard enough ?

Will the unserious breeder do a X-ray and be good breeders ?
Or will it be like today, the breed will get more unhealthy fore every day ?

Regards / Mikael

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I think it looks good, but is it hard enough ?

Will the unserious breeder do a X-ray and be good breeders ?
Or will it be like today, the breed will get more unhealthy fore every day ?

Regards / Mikael

Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever be that simple...

Healthy breeding over time, I think, relies on a system of 3 elements:
1. Breeders breeding for ethical reasons - not to make money
2. Buyers making educated and informed decisions - and not supporting sales of potentially unhealthy litters
3. Clubs making sanctions against registration of litters from parents with unknown HD results

One website, or even poor reputations don't necessarily change the way people breed...for people like you or I - who do try to act in the best interests of the breed, it is equally important to know "what else" is out there - by allowing those litters with unknown results on here also - for better or worse - it promotes awareness, and the passage of knowledge. By including an easy link to articles on HD and bonitation, hopefully potential buyers will take a few moments to read and understand what they are looking at, and what they should be looking for...

And it is my goal - one day - to have bonitations in America!

All of the very best!

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I think it looks good, but is it hard enough ?

What do you mean?
Mikael, are you saying that you want improve the breed by being hard ???

I'm an old woman and may assure you that one cannot improve anything, nor stimulate cooperation among people by being hard on them. Besides, WD is not a CSV parliament and have neither legislative power nor Margo & Przemek have breeding police at their disposal Any breeder may take his toys and go to play elswhere any time....

In my opinion it would much more reasonable and effective to praise good breeders, show what practice/ behaviour makes them good... publicly in a visible place display the information, just like Marcy suggests... so that others would feel compelled to catch up with the high standards...

I'm out of the discussion now, it's getting too abstract for me.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

What do you mean?
Mikael, are you saying that you want improve the breed by being hard ???

I'm an old woman and may assure you that one cannot improve anything, nor stimulate cooperation among people by being hard on them. Besides, WD is not a CSV parliament and have neither legislative power nor Margo & Przemek have breeding police at their disposal Any breeder may take his toys and go to play elswhere any time....

In my opinion it would much more reasonable and effective to praise good breeders, show what practice/ behaviour makes them good... publicly in a visible place display the information, just like Marcy suggests... so that others would feel compelled to catch up with the high standards...

I'm out of the discussion now, it's getting too abstract for me.

I think it is more people then me that think we need to be a bit hard here

Look at the top of this thread, what we really do vote about !!!
that is hard, maby to hard...

Therefore I support Massimos proposal, because it is hard but still not to hard

Best regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen

Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever be that simple...

Healthy breeding over time, I think, relies on a system of 3 elements:
1. Breeders breeding for ethical reasons - not to make money
2. Buyers making educated and informed decisions - and not supporting sales of potentially unhealthy litters
3. Clubs making sanctions against registration of litters from parents with unknown HD results

One website, or even poor reputations don't necessarily change the way people breed...for people like you or I - who do try to act in the best interests of the breed, it is equally important to know "what else" is out there - by allowing those litters with unknown results on here also - for better or worse - it promotes awareness, and the passage of knowledge. By including an easy link to articles on HD and bonitation, hopefully potential buyers will take a few moments to read and understand what they are looking at, and what they should be looking for...

And it is my goal - one day - to have bonitations in America!

All of the very best!

I agree, this is only one small step, but at least it is a step in the right direction

And in Sweden I think we will have bonitations about the year 2025
We will go to Germany or Poland I think

Best regards / Mikael

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by Rona

I'm an old woman

looooooooooooool

Here are the 2 cents of the 2nd old woman:

If an interested person is able to think, read, ask ... it´s absolutely okay how it is.
If not I would prefer Vaiva´s suggestion.

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Or maybe it is enought just to do one simple thing - when one opens the information about the litter (any of them - with HD or without it, bonitated or not), he sees big bold letters on the upper part of the page (before the photos of parents), something like: "Attention. HD results are important, because....., pay your attention to the bonitation code, it is important because..." The formulation should be short and clear

Usually people simply do not know how important HD is, also nobody knows about bonitation if had nothing in common with CsW before.

I think the idea of Vaiva is very good! Because then you can give short info for all the simple interested people!

Every month I have a lot of visitors who are interested in the breed and who wants more info. (and of course not all of them are right persons for a CsW (in my eyes!) and most of the time they realise this when I am telling more about the speciality's of this breed)

But you can't imagine who less people (in west Europe) even don't know what is a Bonitation! And even not everybody knows how important official HD results are ... (a lot of people did believe breeders who were telling: CsW is a healthy breed and I don't need to make x-rays, because HD is not a problem in my lines )

So I think when we want to change anything, we also have to give a lot of info to unknown interested people!
And only colours want help in this way….

[Navarre]

I voted NO. We should know everything.

I think the better idea is that one of Vaiva.
I don't agree with colour, group and so on...wd should not "judge" a litter :at least for people "green" will be a nicer litter than "yellow" , but how be sure of this ?

For example a stud hd-A but with high dysplasic brother make a litter : is this litter "good" (green) or not ?

Or a bonitation code of a parodistic bonitation can assure that good (green) dog is SO good ?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Rona

In my opinion it would much more reasonable and effective to praise good breeders, show what practice/ behaviour makes them good... publicly in a visible place display the information, just like Marcy suggests...

I meant Vaiva's suggestions It's hard to read attentively or write precisely and at the same time watch if the pup is not up to some mischief

Susana's remark makes sense. Green colour would suggest that potential breeders could safely purchase pups from that litter, but of course this wouldn't necessarily be the case if the HD result(s) were bad.