Italian bonitations

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

It is really really true what you did write Rolf.

I fully agree with this

Originally Posted by hanninadina

These test are too nothing in comparison to real character test.

This is exactly my point ! The character test in Cz and Sk bonitation is ONLY testing if the dog will defend it`s owner and it self, but this really say NOTHING about character, you can train your dog to react correct in these situations, but this SHOULD not be a test of training, but of character !
...so all in all one could say that the name "character test" should be changed to "test of defence reaction" OR the character test should be performed in a much more serious and ambitious way to live up to the name "character test". This is why I think this "small" difference in the Italian version of the "character test" really mean nothing.

Greetings Rolf

[elf]

Some affirmations are true some are false.

It's true that a dog can be at a kind of level conditioned for character test (that's why for the first french bonitation I asked people not to prepare their dog to have a brut results).

It's false that one cannot learn a lot about an adult dog character with test less than 45min. It's false that you can learn/condition all to a dog for test character, sensorial homeostatsis ability is not "learnable".

Interestingtalk about Miky. The problem nowadays is not the talk around the character of Miky, but in France we have a real problem of genetic diversity and population bottleneck on this line, 396 offsprings for Miky, 760 for Cutt.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by elf

It's false that one cannot learn a lot about an adult dog character with test less than 45min. It's false that you can learn/condition all to a dog for test character, sensorial homeostatsis ability is not "learnable".

I see don`t where it is written that 45min. is minimum ? But I agree that 3-5min. is not enough to make a complete character test, but the TIME is not the main issue, the main issue is HOW the test is performed

Greetings Rolf

[Nebulosa]

Well, t'ill now we talk only about the character tests differences in Italian Bonitation, but I remember about problems with the notes for dogs with wrong index, that if not deceifme was one of the others problems envolved with Italian Bonitation.
Character test itself have differences between Czech republic and Slovak, only that won't discredit a bonitation like we can see in italian ones.
Maybe, italian people can explain it better.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Well, t'ill now we talk only about the character tests differences in Italian Bonitation, but I remember about problems with the notes for dogs with wrong index, that if not deceifme was one of the others problems envolved with Italian Bonitation.

I did not hear/read about this in the Italian bonitation, but it is apparently like this in the CZ and SK bonitation according to Margo(see the quote below).

Originally Posted by Margo

Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Character test itself have differences between Czech republic and Slovak, only that won't discredit a bonitation like we can see in italian ones.
Maybe, italian people can explain it better.

I personally don`t think one difference is worser than another, Cz and Sk bonitations ARE different, in Cz all "normal" dogs get the code R1 and as far as I understand Sk only give this code to dogs who are more than normal dry types, then there is the difference with 1cm too little in height and also the difference with index, so in Italy they have a difference in "character test"(which discredit the bonitation) and in Cz and Sk they have a difference in how to write codes(which discredit the bonitation) ....is one better or worser than the other ? I think not

Greetings Rolf

[Navarre]

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.
I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!)

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.

This make no sense to me ? when you say "almost the same" this is your opinion and not a fact, another opinion could be that they are different, because they are ONLY "almost the same".

Originally Posted by Navarre

I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

One could easily say the same about Cz and Sk, it isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different interpretations.

Originally Posted by Navarre

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!)

When you make such a big number out of what is facts, then please make sure what you write really is facts ! as far as I can read, there was 17 dogs at last bonitation made by "so-called" Italien breed club and at the last 3 bonitations before that, there were 16, 12 and 12 ...I only see 1 bonitation made by you and friends with help from Czech club with 41 dogs, but jumping to this conclution on such a small basis that you write here, is really not objective ! ...please correct me if I am wrong

Originally Posted by Navarre

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.

This thread is NOT about Miky Passo del Lupo !!!
I have seen more of you writing about this dog in this thread, please stop it ! ...even that I am very happy for your input, it is not very constructive to write about this dog and brings no light to the subject which is Italian bonitations.

Please keep an open mind

Greetings Rolf