HD results

[saschia]

Hi folks,

there is one problem with doing things with your future stud which the local FCI doesn't require - and that is price. As it is not required, only few people want to do it, therefore the demand is low and the prices are high. It is the same with chips in Slovakia - the prices are outrageous. And as I get much lower salary than in most EU and as I cannot sell pups locally for prices like in EU but I have to pay for things almost as much as others in EU I just have to prioritize. So I chipped all my pups, as they were only 3 of them and I wanted to be sure if one gets lost it gets found easier. And I did take X-ray of Frei's elbows, as she was already sleeping and the pictures are not that expensive. But I don't have the official ED results, I just had the vet who X-rayed her look at the pictures and tell me if they are OK so that I can let my dog do crazy things (like climb trees - she does it similar to alpinists climbing rocks). And I don't know any officially good evaluator of ED in Slovakia anyway...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by saschia

there is one problem with doing things with your future stud which the local FCI doesn't require - and that is price. As it is not required, only few people want to do it, therefore the demand is low and the prices are high.

You are right. It is strange but in the Eastern Europe you get less money for puppies but you have to pay much more money for every test. You know - it makes the pedigree dogs VERY precious here...

But Daiva was talking about something else. Some time ago there was the topic about bonitations. Some breeders were writing "Everybody MUST have it. It doesn't matter if you have to travel some thousands km and spent some thousands of EUR. Good breeder must make it"....
Now we are talking about ED which is much more important than the bonitation because it is about the HEALTH and the situation is getting MORE and MORE problematic as there are more and more cases of ED problems by CzW (mainly bacause people breed with ill dogs and ED seems to be VERY hereditary). And the same breeders which asked (even forced) other breeders to spent a lot of money to make the bonitation in the case of ED where they do not need to travel and the costs are very small compared to the bonitation have one answer: I do not make it because my club do not require it....

Anyway even if it will cause additional costs I will ask the clubs to think about it. Maybe at the moment nobody need to make it obligatory but it would be great to say breeders and stud dog owners that there are more and more cases of ED. And it would be good to check their dogs also for it. It would be good because I personaly removed from my private "stud dog list" dogs which come from the line where ED problems appeared and where the dogs are not checked and I know many serious breeders have done the same... The risk is to high because it is visible that many offspring of dogs with ED also have ED problems (the heredity of ED seems to be MUCH higher than of the HD).

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Margo

...............
PS. We made something more important - we collect information who made the x-rays. So in the new database you will have information not only about the results but also the name of the vet who checked it.

Maybe it also a suggestion to add in which countries dogs did have their x rays!
And also when they have different results in different countries.
Then it becomes also more clear all the differences between the way judging in several countries!

Because since 1991 the FCI decided that dogs can only have HD x ray in the country where they live and are registered.
And the HD results that they did receive in other countries will not be recognized by most of the kennel clubs.
So only the results of the country where the dog is registered will appear on the pedigree of the dog.

It is a strange rule. Because the more strange is that the same dog can have different results of x rays in 2 different countries!

So I can imagine that some owners make HD x rays in other countries then their own.
And then, the best results are always published here on wolfdog.
And that is why some dogs here have other results then the results that are on the pedigree of their puppies.

It would be nice if all kind of breed clubs also would publish the HD results of dogs that did have x rays in different countries.

Then everybody could see that there are differences in judging between specialists and countries and that it is an unfair and strange FCI rule.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by mijke

Because since 1991 the FCI decided that dogs can only have HD x ray in the country where they live and are registered.

I never heard about it, because HD test is a clear veterinary thing and have nothing to do with FCI. Can you send a link on the FCI document ? Thank you

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Pavel

I never heard about it, because HD test is a clear veterinary thing and have nothing to do with FCI.

In the past I thought the same!

But the Dutch kennel organization did confirm me, that it was a decision of the scientific commission of the FCI that did made this decision in 1991.

And this info is also on the site of the RVBH (the Dutch kennel organization) http://www.raadvanbeheer.nl/fokkerij...sie-onderzoek/

To be sure it is not only a crazy Dutch rule , I did ask them to send me the official circular of the FCI of 1991 with this info.
As soon as I have received this, I’ll post it here or add a link.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by mijke

Because since 1991 the FCI decided that dogs can only have HD x ray in the country where they live and are registered.
And the HD results that they did receive in other countries will not be recognized by most of the kennel clubs.
So only the results of the country where the dog is registered will appear on the pedigree of the dog.

Yes, Finish Kennel Club did say that this was the FCI roules, when I did talk to them last year...

I do not know about Sweden, but the Finish Kennel Club did think it was OK to do the x-ray in Finland and then send the X-ray to get the result from a expert on the breed in a nother country. But I do not know if they would put that result on the pedigree or not ???

Best regards / M

[Mikael]

I fund this little test/study and would like to know what you think of it...
Some info is translated from Swedish.

"Hip dysplasia

Hip dysplasia is a common, inherited malformation of the coxofemoral joint that eventually leads to osteoarthrosis. Several breeds of dogs are affected and the prevalence varies between different breeds. As part of the effort to reduce the prevalence of hip dysplasia and select dogs suitable for breeding, radiological screening is performed by at least 12 months of age. Before the radiological examination the dog has to be chemically restrained, sedated or anesthetized. The sedation protocol used differs between veterinary clinics. The impact of sedation method of the screening result for hip dysplasia has been studied. Six young Golden retrievers were radiographed at three times. Without sedation, sedated with acepromazine and sedated with a combination of medetomidine and butorphanol. Acepromazine and medetomidine differs in modes of action, where acepromazine is a neurolepticum with limited effect on muscle relaxation and none on analgesia. The combination of medetomidine and butorphanol results in deep sedation, with a high level of muscle relaxation and analgesia. The type of chemical restraint showed significant effect on the result of the radiological examination. The prevalence of hip dysplasia was lower in unsedated dogs or when sedated with acepromazine than when the dogs were sedated with the combination of medetomidine and butorphanol. In several dogs the result also differed on repeated examination within the same sedation. The number of repeat films was lower and the total time needed for examination shorter when the dogs were sedated, especially when sedated with medetomidine and butorphanol.

Dogs sedated whit Acepromazine performance differs not from awake dogs.

Dog 1-3 has HD x-ray A-B from before and dog 4-6 has the result C on at least one hip.

Dog------- Awake --- Acepromazine-------Medetomidine / Butorphanol

Nr 1 Sin -- A A A ------- A A A -------------------B A A
Dx ---------A A A --------A A A ------------------- B A A
Nr 2 Sin --B C B--------- B C A ------------------- A A A
Dx ---------A A C --------B B C---------------------C A B
Nr 3 Sin ---A A A --------B A A --------------------A A A
Dx ---------B C A --------C C C ---------------------C B C
Nr 4 Sin ---C C C --------B B B --------------------C C C
Dx ---------C C C ---------B C C --------------------C B C
Nr 5 Sin ---B A A --------A A A --------------------C B C
Dx ---------A A A ---------A A A -------------------A A B
Nr 6 Sin ---B B B --------C C C ---------------------C D D
Dx ---------C C C ---------C B B ---------------------C C D



On four occasions, had the same X-ray hip joint assessment of both A and C for the sedation, this occurred in all three of sedation practices. At 14 times varied the same lap one stage, seven of them ranged between B and C, two ranged between C and D and five between A and B. At 18 occasions was the same hip joint results in all three exposures during the same sedation routine."

Source and more info in Swedish.
http://ex-epsilon.slu.se/archive/00002147/01/Sederingsrutinens_p%C3%A5verkan_p%C3%A5_resultatet _av_h%C3%B6ftledsr%C3%B6ntgen.pdf

Very best regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

In Germany the dog has to be sedated until full muscle relaxation and the vet has to confirm that.
The other question is who did the examination, was it always the same person, did it differ what was his qualification etc.

Ina

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

In Germany the dog has to be sedated until full muscle relaxation and the vet has to confirm that.
The other question is who did the examination, was it always the same person, did it differ what was his qualification etc.

Ina

Hello Ina

I will try to anser as best as I can

This is some more info translated by google

"F.C.I. since 2007 has regulated that all dogs undergoing
X-ray monitoring of HD status is sedated (Hansson, 2007). In Sweden has been a requirement since earlier that the dogs be "medicated before investigation so that they are sufficiently relaxed at X-ray time "(SKK,
2004)."

"Author. Hjorth, Tove -08 Sederingsrutinens impact on the outcome of hip x-ray. Dept. of Clinical Sciences, SLU. Thesis (Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine and Animal Science, Veterinary Program) "

Purpose
The purpose of this study was to obtain an indication of whether the choice of sedation affect the results of X-ray examination, and if the results will vary even between repeated exposures during the same sedation.

Materials and methods
Six, according to the owners clinically healthy dogs of the breed Golden Retrievers, between one and three years old (654-1430 days) were used in the study. The dogs were privately owned and gathered through contacts with breeders in Uppsala and Stockholm area.
All the dogs had detected HD status. Three of the dogs had a grade C in one or both hips. Three of the dogs had grade A or B. Which sedation dogs x-ray in at the registration completed the study were no
into account and these images are neither included in the study. Four of the dogs were males and two were females of which one was castrated. Two of the dogs with approved hip joints were half-siblings but the other was not closely related.
The dogs x-rayed twice at Image Diagnostic Clinic at University animal hospital in Uppsala (Sweden). At all times the dogs were positioned on a table of the same X-ray technicians, and the same person held the hind legs. Mechanical fixation of the hind legs were not used. If necessary for the dog would lie still was the dog's owner in the head end. For the first time x-rayed the dogs first wake up and three shots approved for readings were taken. After each image was moved dog around the table of who held the hind legs and then the next image back position by X-ray technician. After three images taken from awake dog manners were dog withmedetomidine and butorphanol (Domitor ® and Torbugesic ®) at a dose of 12 0.1 ml per 10 kg of each preparation, administered intramuscularly. When sufficient power sedation achieved was a further three images as described earlier. Dogs raised then with atipamezole (Anti Since ®) 0.1 ml per 10 kg. Six to fourteen days later traditions were dogs with acepromazine (Plegicil ®) 0.2 ml per 10 kg intramuscularly and when adequate sedation level achieved was three shots. The dogs were positioned again on the images. The three exposures taken during the same sedation will henceforth be called "X-opportunity".
The identity of the images, a total of 54 pieces, were removed before the reading and grading under F.C.I. The reading was at one time and the pictures in random order, one of SKK's official readers of high-definition X-ray. Each hip joint was assessed separately, and any comments on image quality was noted.
The results of X-ray surveys were translated into a numerical scale from 1 to 5, where A = 1 and E = 5, before a "mixed model" analysis of ordinal data (SAS procedure Glimmix) was conducted. We looked first at the choice of sedation in general had effect on earnings and the various sedation effect in relation to each other.
It also examined the effect of sedation differs between right and left
hip. The threshold for statistical significance was set at p = 0.05.

Results
Evidence from X-ray moment The number of pictures that were taken in order to get three assessment photos only varied at each X-ray time between three and nine. When the dogs were awake were on average 6.8
images / dog and this was X-ray technician in the two cases remain in the examination room to the pictures could be taken. Under sedation with medetomidine and butorphanol took an average of 4.0 frames per dog and acepromazinsedering at 4.8 frames per dog. A dog was not possible to x-ray either awake or under acepromazinsedering when the not lay still long enough for a picture could be taken, although X-ray technician
remained at the table when the picture was taken. The dog did well to X-ray sedated with medetomidine and butorphanol. The dog was excluded from the study and a reserve dog was introduced. Of the study's conclusion, the dogs were seen two dogs relaxed when they were fully
wake up in the investigation. Other dogs were more or less stressful. The number X-ray exposures at the moment without sedation did not differ between the dogs that was relaxed on the table and stretching himself. There was no difference in picture quality the images captured in awake and sedated dogs. The time needed for X-ray examinations was at least twice as long on osederade dogs and one longer acepromazinsederade dogs compared with dogs sedated with medetomidine and butorphanol.
Sederingsrutinens impact on earnings The results of X-ray examination can be seen in Table 1. Sedation is really have an effect on survey results. Right and left hip is affected in the same degree of sedation routine. When the dogs are sedated with a combination of medetomidine and butorphanol, they appear to be classified with a higher character than when they 13
sedated with acepromazine or osederade. The differences are significant (p = 0.04)."

Very best regards / Mikael