Elbow Dysplasia

[admin]

1) The percentage of heriditary of ED is different for different breeds. I found results of scientific work saying ED is more genetic based than HD. And exactly by wolfdog it seem to "work" - the ED problems seem to appear only by the offspring of two dogs. And their lines seem to be "carriers" of the problems.

For some years we allowed to advertise such dogs here but it is visible new ill dogs (with ED) are offsprings of the ED dogs. Other lines are CLEAR.

So my question to rolf and Runningwolf:

ARE YOU ALSO FO BREEDING DOGS WITH HEART PROBLEMS, EPILEPSY, and STRONG HD (HD-D and HD-E)? Because the same arguments we can use also in this cases...

I'm for the these:
ILL DOG IS AN ILL DOG = NOT FOR BREEDING

Sure you can use them if you want but it is at your responsibility...

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Admin

1) The percentage of heriditary of ED is different for different breeds. I found results of scientific work saying ED is more genetic based than HD.

I would be very interested in such scientific results, as I personally have been speaking with one of the leading specialists in diagnostics and treatment of joint-/bones-illness and radiography (including PennHIP) in Denmark, his conclution is quit different.

Originally Posted by Admin

For some years we allowed to advertise such dogs here but it is visible new ill dogs (with ED) are offsprings of the ED dogs. Other lines are CLEAR.

And all dogs from these "clear"lines have official ED-results ? or are you just guessing ?

Originally Posted by Admin

So my question to rolf and Runningwolf:

ARE YOU ALSO FO BREEDING DOGS WITH HEART PROBLEMS, EPILEPSY, and STRONG HD (HD-D and HD-E)? Because the same arguments we can use also in this cases...

Ofcourse not ! Do you seriously think it is fair to compare dog with heart problems, epilepsy or strong HD, with dogs who have the mildest degree of ED(0/1) ?

Originally Posted by Admin

I'm for the these:
ILL DOG IS AN ILL DOG = NOT FOR BREEDING

A dog with HD C is in most cases more ill than a dog with ED 0/1, as ED is a term used for many different illnesses in the elbow and many of these illnesss don`t even have slightest degree of influenze on the health of the dog, compared to a dog who have HD C, but you have no problem with HD C, even that it usually have a bigger influenze on the dogs well being ?

By the way, why do you put your self higher than the breedingcommitees of the breeds origin ? I am sure if they thought it were so bad, they could easily add this to the standart, but apparently they don`t ?
Do you feel you have more experience/wisdom, better knowledge and better judgement than the breedingcommitees of the countries of origin, since you choose not to follow their guidelines ?
I`m just curious...

Rolf

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Admin

No - the rules is different: we remove all ILL dogs from the list.

If you will remove ALL ill dogs, when will you remove dogs with HD B & C, because they are ill too or do you have a special formula which decide how ill a dog must be before it will be removed from the list ?

Originally Posted by Admin

So on the stud dog list you can not find dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, PRA and ED.

How do you know this ? dogs who are not tested or dogs who are tested, but do not make the results official, will still be on the list and it is quit possible that many of these dogs will have one or more of the illnesses you mentioned. ...but ofcourse, you don`t need to fear what you can not see

Originally Posted by Admin

The problem was: the breeders (owners of ill dogs) DO NOT INFORM the puppy owners and other breeders interested in the dogs as stud dogs that the dogs have the problem.

So you think it is better not to test the dogs or not to make the results official, then nobody knows and nobody can choose if they want puppies from ill(ED, heart problems, epilepsy and PRA) dogs, as nobody knows if the dog is ill or not ? how do you find this logic, when people still can choose to take a puppy from an ill dog with HD C ?

Originally Posted by Admin

We already received complains from breeders who covered their females and they accuse US of "advertising" of ill dogs.

But you still advertise for ill dogs with HD C ?

Originally Posted by Admin

As you can see there are different parties: here you can see one (real family: rolf, massimo - check the database and you will see why they keep toghether). But we receive also messages from the other type of breeders..

Massimo and I have no blood relatives, we are friends, if your conclution with the database should stick, I would have a really large family, but in fact I don`t know many people of who my dogs are relatives to their dogs. ...and as Massimo also wrote, we do not always agree, for me it is not necessary for my friends to agree with all my opinions ...I like people who can think for them selves

Originally Posted by Admin

We know that many breeders do not check the heart, eyes, or ED. We know some breeders cheat with the HD results

And this is exactly what you encourage people to do, by this politics you are laying for the day ...really nice

Originally Posted by Admin

Can you write me a GOOD reasons why in this case we should punish dogs with hear problems and epilepsy and make exception for ED?

Can you write me a good reason why to make an exception for HD B & C ?
...To use your own words : an ill dog is an ill dog.

Will it be possible to know your scourse of your claimed seintific work or is it just as secret as who admin is ?

Btw. I am still missing some answers from admin on post 49, I`m looking forward to hear what you have to say to these questions.

Greetings Rolf

[admin]

Originally Posted by rolf

If you will remove ALL ill dogs, when will you remove dogs with HD B & C, because they are ill too or do you have a special formula which decide how ill a dog must be before it will be removed from the list ?

I will answer all posts later - anyway small corection. I see you do not know what are the levels of HD and ED....

HD-A and HD-B are HEALTHY dogs. HD-A mean excellent hips and HD-B "not quite perfect but healthy".

The descriptions by ED are DIFFERENT. ED-0 is for healthy hips. ED-1 is already DISPLATIC dogs with light displasia.

Simply said:

ED-1 = HD-C

(and not like you think ED-1 = HD-B)

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Admin

I will answer all posts later - anyway small corection. I see you do not know what are the levels of HD and ED....

HD-A and HD-B are HEALTHY dogs. HD-A mean excellent hips and HD-B "not quite perfect but healthy".

The descriptions by ED are DIFFERENT. ED-0 is for healthy hips. ED-1 is already DISPLATIC dogs with light displasia.

Simply said:

ED-1 = HD-C

(and not like you think ED-1 = HD-B)

I am very impressed about your knowledge of what I know and what I think

Explanation from the Danish expert who I mentioned earlier is quite different than your statement :
HD B = light dysplatic, but normally with no real health issue.
ED 1 = light dyspaltic, but normally with no real health issue, depending on which illness who caused this result, as ED is a term used for many different illnesses(not only dysplacia like in HD) in the elbow.

Originally Posted by Admin

we remove all ILL dogs from the list.

Anyway if you think HD C = ED 1 and ED 1 is an ill dog, why do you allow dogs with HD C to stay on the stud dog list ?

Greetings Rolf

[admin]

Originally Posted by rolf

Explanation from the Danish expert who I mentioned earlier is quite different than your statement :
HD B = light dysplatic, but normally with no real health issue.
ED 1 = light dyspaltic, but normally with no real health issue

Please LEAVE this "expert"... Ask better google...

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Admin

Please LEAVE this "expert"... Ask better google...

Please tell me your scourse of your claimed sientific work ...and your name, if you are not afraid to stand by your opinions ?

Google is the expert of all experts

Greetings Rolf

[admin]

Originally Posted by rolf

Google is the expert of all experts

No ... but still better than person who helps you and make BASIC faults and have no idea about basic things...
I'm sorry but I have no time to explain you everything starting with "What is HD and ED and what are the scores".... Even if without it the whole talk is for nothing (because exactly the missing information is the reason why the are so many wholes in your argumentation)...

[wolfin]

when i mas buy new dog, I better buy puppy from HD C one parent but not ED 1. Why? this is explaine in this forum, but I saw, You not wish this understand

[starjumper]

Originally Posted by wolfin

when i mas buy new dog, I better buy puppy from HD C one parent but not ED 1. Why? this is explaine in this forum, but I saw, You not wish this understand

Ok, you're right.

Now can someone answer the other question?

[woland77]

I do not understand the sense of comparison between HD and ED. Those Problems are governed by a different gene control, HD a polygenism, ED a dominant gene. Different is the criterion for the choice of stallion for the two problems. The value of a stallion HD C depends on the outcome of the entire litter, the descendants, and halfsiblings and ancestor. HD C stallion with his brother is HD D, his halfsibilings is HD E can not be viewed in the same way that HD C stallion from a litter where all the brothers are HD A, whose parents come from good litters. While all dogs with ED 1 to be considered in the same way.

[Nebulosa]

Maybe, if I quote and paste what is wrote on OFFA they will have no more excuse to say " no it isn't, my vet say or my vet told or I saw it in a pallestry for breeder".

Originally Posted by OFFA

There are many factors to consider when evaluating the progress of countries that permit breeding Grade I elbows. There may indeed be reasons to consider using Grade I elbows in breeding programs for the purpose of maintaining a broader gene pool, especially in countries where the breed specific rate of ED is approximately 25% or higher (as appears to be the case in some European countries). One must balance the potential consequences as they pertain both to the entire gene pool, and to elbow disease as a part of the gene pool. With a lower rate of ED in many breeds in the U.S., the genetic pressures to include Grade I ED's in most US breeding programs may not be the same as in other countries. Below are two sets of data which may help provide a basis for making a more informed decision whether to breed a dog affected with Grade I ED.

Originally Posted by Offa

The OFA’s distinction between normal and abnormal elbows is actually more clearly defined than are the differences between fair and borderline hips. Elbows are diagnosed as dysplastic when evidence of Degenerative Joint Disease (DJD) is present as evidenced by osteophytes or sclerosis. It is not a gradual continuum from normal to abnormal, in which minor differences might be interpreted as normal by one reader and abnormal by another. The degree of DJD present is the determining factor in the grade of dysplasia.
The term “degenerative joint disease” is often misunderstood and misinterpreted. “Degenerative” is defined as some distinct change from a normal state to a diseased state. It does not imply a continuing process in which the disease will progress and worsen continuously over time, and it is incorrect to assume that a dog with Grade I ED will eventually develop Grade II or III ED.
It is also important to understand that DJD is a finding which aids in the diagnosis of elbow dysplasia, but the DJD itself is the secondary result of one or more of three distinct etiologies that make up the generalized description of elbow dysplasia. These are united anconeal process (UAP), fragmented coronoid process (FCP), and osteochondrosis (OCD) which may appear singularly or in combination.

And princially, different of HD that I can avoid completly with correct suplement EVEN IN A DOGS GENETICALLY AFFECTED, in ED it didn't happen.

As I told before and as now you all can read by OFFA, the metod of judge HD is completly different of the metod which judge ED, those ills are different, the part is tooks works different and are different, its simply impossible to even compare the two.

Originally Posted by OFFA

have all concluded that the heritability of ED (defined as UAP, FCP, or OCD) is moderate to high. This means that breeding selections can have a significant impact on the rate of ED in a breed.

And again here, we talk about the huge hereditability of this ill.

Who still have doubts, its only took what I wrote before and put togheter with what is wroted here, and i'm sure, will have no more doubts.

As we have at moment few cases of ED problems in the breed, as those dogs mainly don't comes from "rare" lines, not have why preserve ED in breeding spreading the problem in a breed that have a small genetic pool.

So far ED knowledge seems to be new for CzW breeders, as its not tested in some other breeds ( which didn't means they're not affected).
If we took out all dogs without results, the stud dog list will be really small as some dogs are already too old to receive another anesthesie for make this exam (as wolfdogs are not such easy with anesthetics), so, the best way would be put a borderline between the dogs that need to be checked for enter in the database, dogs born in 2007 half/end will have their hips and elbows checked in this year, the ones who born before it probably already had make the check, so, the best will be dogs born in 2008 foward only be accepted in stud list with ED results, and the others remain even without it.