About "stud list" on wolfdog.org

Navarre · 01-19-2010, 20:03

We are Wolfdog.org users; we are owners, breeders, interested spectators; some of us attend work camps, others use to go to expos; we have regularly ENCI registered dogs, a high percentage of whom have hip and elbow scores, and many of whom had their bonitace... opinions can be different, but in general we are all lovers of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog breed and we love our dogs.
For us all Wolfdog.org has always been a precious mean of support, a source of knowledge thanks to its database, created thanks to the helpfulness of thousands of people that saw in the site set up by Margo and Przemek a true aid in the development of the breed, free from the conditionings and from the influences of big breeders and "lobbies ".
Its strength is the great quantity of data it gathers, also and above all the ones that someone wanted to keep hidden, together with the existence of few equal rules for everybody, without favoritisms for this or that faction.
Recently there have been some changes in the stud dogs list that have aroused some worries, it seems in fact that there has been a discriminatory treatment towards the Italian breeding dogs, in particular one:

Voice of Wolf z Molu Es, HD A - ED 0/1, has been excluded from the list without neither notices nor explanations, and only thanks to a thread on the English forum the owner has learned the reason:

“The dogs was removed because in the most cases the elbow problem were hidden by their owners and elbow problems start to spread among the breed. While before there were also none known cases of ED-dysplasia it is getting more and more problematic and every month I'm getting information about new ED-infected dogs.” (ADMIN)

But despite this declaration, all the dogs whose elbows were not tested or those with hidden results stayed in the list. Besides, the problem of the elbow dysplasia is complex and it’s not clear on what data the statistic has been evaluated, considering that until a few years ago the dogs’ elbow were not examined, and even today it’s only done in a few countries, (the 65% of the stud dogs with elbow scores is in the Italian list to 09/09/2009)* If the site is really a resource for everybody we ask that it applies equal rules for the users of every country. It would be a democratic gesture to discuss the rules BEFORE they were applied, and it would also make the scientific motivations behind them clearer.

dany
bonfiglioli
hayla
riko06
star
sunnyna
betti
piccolino
anastasia
laila
edha
jal
molisanodream
starjumper
erica&amy
elisaP
i piccy
Antarctica
arf
woland77
aly87
matteo&martina
valentina
frafairy
na
mogwai
divina
maya
ciao69
bricicca1
arnaldo it
venerusoangelo
giobi 81
tatanka1094
luca
pisculli
marco
zach
chiara.giardini
m.greta
Lyudmila Encheva
roby e gaio
sirius
zattilio
littlewolf
fede86
denial
odisseo
sciamalaia
robykut
MariNoor
amaguk
ezibaby
gilda
ste
chepi
ciao69
riko06
mat
littlewolf
hadankama
ovogibba
wolflinx
germans
ornella
vassel
laila
martab
navarre

Mikael · 01-19-2010, 20:31

Please add my name to the list to, I vote for 100% HD and ED result info on ALL Stud Dogs.

Best regards / Mikael

mijke · 01-19-2010, 21:29

For me the most honest and objective way would be to publish all stud dogs on the list with their HD and ED results.

And breeders who want to use a stud dog are smart enough always to ask the owner for copy's of all the official results before covering!
And based on this info they can make their own choose for combinations.

And yes there are now dogs with hidden results, or without results. Because not in all countries (or breed clubs) it is common or obligated to make ED x rays.
So it will be good to when we explain and explain again in every country, on wolfdog and in club magazines why it is also important to make ED xrays!

Till now in Holland only 1 (!) CsW was tested for ED. And not because the other owners want to hide things!!!
But because it is not a common or standard procedure in my country. (only for some breeds) That is why I also did write an article about ED in the Dutch club magazine.
And I hope that in future more and more CsW will have ED results.

But for me it is not honest (and smart) only to remove the CsW's with positive ED results from the studdog list.
While all other males with hidden or without results can be on the stud dog list.

Ricky's Wolf · 01-22-2010, 18:16

Cytat:

Napisał Navarre

dany
bonfiglioli
hayla
riko06
star
sunnyna
betti
piccolino
anastasia
laila
edha
jal
molisanodream
starjumper
erica&amy
elisaP
i piccy
Antarctica
arf
woland77
aly87
matteo&martina
valentina
frafairy
na
mogwai
divina
maya
ciao69
bricicca1
arnaldo it
venerusoangelo
giobi 81
tatanka1094
luca
pisculli
marco
zach
chiara.giardini
m.greta
Lyudmila Encheva
roby e gaio
sirius
zattilio
littlewolf
fede86
denial
odisseo
sciamalaia
robykut
MariNoor
amaguk
ezibaby
gilda
ste
chepi
ciao69
riko06
mat
littlewolf
hadankama
ovogibba
wolflinx
germans
ornella
vassel
laila
martab
navarre
Mikael
Runningwolf

72 people......................................

Mikael · 01-22-2010, 18:54

Yes 72-0 this far

Equal rights and justice on the stud list please / Mikael

z Peronówki · 01-22-2010, 22:03

Cytat:

Napisał Mikael

Yes 72-0 this far

73-0 now.

I'm for explaining the problems and not for hiding them!

michaelundinaeichhorn · 01-22-2010, 22:14

74, I don´t see any sense in not showing bad results in studdogs, I want to know as much as possible about studs and their offspring.

Ina

mijke · 01-22-2010, 22:29

75-1 You did forget my first post

Nebulosa · 01-22-2010, 22:56

76

Maybe we should actualize the list?

massimo · 01-22-2010, 23:31

Cytat:

Napisał z Peronówki

73-0 now.

I'm for explaining the problems and not for hiding them!

???
ehm...
Margo? you are Margo joining a list which is against some rules of the woldog.org site....owned by ....Margo?

I'm confused!!

I wrote long time ago I was against putting IN the list dogs without ED test and putting OUT of the list dogs with ED 1 test, it is absurd and useless;as if you punish who makes the test and prize who doesn't.

But...who made the rules of the studlist that we are petitioning against?
it has been there for a long time...

massimo · 01-23-2010, 14:42

Paula moved away the part about "Admin" and I agree on creation of new thread but...this part was moved away, I think it was coherent to the thread:

Cytat:

Coming back to the main argument, I wrote already 4 months ago,addressing to ADMIN:
"If a dog with declared but not proven ED 0 goes on the stud list and a dog with proven ED0/1 doesn't.... it's automatic that you are PUSHING people NOT to declare bad elbows... as many other may be in the stud list."
and now it seems many many others are joining the same point of view.

Cytat:

The discussion about studlist is open since september, nothing has changed.
Now more than 75 people, users of WD.org, show their disagreement on a rule of WD.org and we really are not sure if we are being heard by the right person.
Will ADMIN listen to our "plead" (which now is stronger than 4 months ago...)?

jmvdwiel · 01-23-2010, 15:39

I'm against of moving the dogs wih ED problems of the list, in Holland as Mijke already mentioned ED is not nescessary yet for breeding.

That is the reason why I didn't do the test yet, If my dog would be selected as a stud dog (which I now think he is to young for), than I can still make the x-ray if the female is x-rayed.

For now I don't have any problems, so for his health I don't have to make the pictures, and of course I know you cannot believe somebody on his/her words.
So why not just put the results in the list, so that every breeder can select the right male/female for his/her dog, I don't think the average wolfdog visitor is THAT stupid that he cannot make a choice for himself.

So I am AGAINST of removing the dogs without he ED results.

Nebulosa · 01-23-2010, 18:47

Cytat:

Napisał massimo

Paula moved away the part about "Admin"

Some kind of sleepwalking.

Cytat:

Napisał jmvdwiel

So I am AGAINST of removing the dogs without he ED results.

I think people need a time to get adaptated, also I dont believe some people will make the dogs pass again for the anesthesie only for make ED results.
Would be more fair if start to require the ED results for the new stud dogs, dogs born from half of 2008 ahead.

jmvdwiel · 01-23-2010, 19:19

I don't think you need anaesthesia for the elbows (with a normal dog

)

Rona · 01-25-2010, 13:53

Cytat:

Napisał massimo

.
Now more than 75 people, users of WD.org, show their disagreement on a rule of WD.org and we really are not sure if we are being heard by the right person.

You may add me too. I don't care very much about this particular issue, but if it might help, I support the majority!

AMERICANI · 01-25-2010, 17:01

Please add me too!

Martab · 01-26-2010, 18:31

Hallo, nice to meet everyone!

Let's actualize the list:
dany
bonfiglioli
hayla
riko06
star
sunnyna
betti
piccolino
anastasia
laila
edha
jal
molisanodream
starjumper
erica&amy
elisaP
i piccy
Antarctica
arf
woland77
aly87
matteo&martina
valentina
frafairy
na
mogwai
divina
maya
ciao69
bricicca1
arnaldo it
venerusoangelo
giobi 81
tatanka1094
luca
pisculli
marco
zach
chiara.giardini
m.greta
Lyudmila Encheva
roby e gaio
sirius
zattilio
littlewolf
fede86
denial
odisseo
sciamalaia
robykut
MariNoor
amaguk
ezibaby
gilda
ste
chepi
ciao69
riko06
mat
littlewolf
hadankama
ovogibba
wolflinx
germans
ornella
vassel
laila
martab
navarre
Mikael
Runningwolf
z Peronoòwki
michaelundinaeicchorn
mijke
Nebulosa
Rona
Americani

whereas Jmvdwiel is "against of removing the dogs without ED results", but I guess not against including dogs WITH ED results, whatever the result is. Is it correct?
Are we in 78 or 79?

sciamalaia · 01-26-2010, 18:46

I think we should include dogs with any results of ED in the list and not to exclude people who do not have the results yet.
I think it is better to know that hiding, since it is not an official list of a specific club .
If I'm wrong or if you do not agree please say your opinion ..

Mikael · 01-26-2010, 18:55

Cytat:

Napisał Martab

Hallo, nice to meet everyone!

Let's actualize the list:
dany
bonfiglioli
hayla
riko06
star
sunnyna
betti
piccolino
anastasia
laila
edha
jal
molisanodream
starjumper
erica&amy
elisaP
i piccy
Antarctica
arf
woland77
aly87
matteo&martina
valentina
frafairy
na
mogwai
divina
maya
ciao69
bricicca1
arnaldo it
venerusoangelo
giobi 81
tatanka1094
luca
pisculli
marco
zach
chiara.giardini
m.greta
Lyudmila Encheva
roby e gaio
sirius
zattilio
littlewolf
fede86
denial
odisseo
sciamalaia
robykut
MariNoor
amaguk
ezibaby
gilda
ste
chepi
ciao69
riko06
mat
littlewolf
hadankama
ovogibba
wolflinx
germans
ornella
vassel
laila
martab
navarre
Mikael
Runningwolf
z Peronoòwki
michaelundinaeicchorn
mijke
Nebulosa
Rona
Americani

whereas Jmvdwiel is "against of removing the dogs without ED results", but I guess not against including dogs WITH ED results, whatever the result is. Is it correct?
Are we in 78 or 79?

-1 read Mijke´s post nr 3 and 8

It is to be 77-1 I think

Very best regards / Mikael

Martab · 01-26-2010, 19:11

Cytat:

Napisał Mikael

-1 read Mijke´s post nr 2 and 8

Ii is to be 77-1 I think

Very best regards / Mikael

I understand that you wish to include only dogs with HD and ED results. And I think that this is the wish everyone has.
But in this moment we have to consider that dogs without ED results are included, whereas dogs with not positive ED results are excluded.

I believe that the FIRST STEP to be taken is to include all dogs with or without ED results, and not to discriminate dogs with "not perfect" ED results, as explained in the petition. (this is MY personal point of view, not the point of view of all the petitioners)

Only afterwards, we can think about new rules to be applied.
The point is that the actual situation is clearly unfair and discriminatory, and needs to be changed immediately.
Agreeing on the "new rules" to be applied is much more complicated, and requires reasonings to be shared...this is my thought but I am more than willing to consider different proposals

01-19-2010, 20:03	#1
Navarre VIP Member Zarejestrowany: Sep 2003 Skąd: Roma Postów: 5,998	About "stud list" on wolfdog.org We are Wolfdog.org users; we are owners, breeders, interested spectators; some of us attend work camps, others use to go to expos; we have regularly ENCI registered dogs, a high percentage of whom have hip and elbow scores, and many of whom had their bonitace... opinions can be different, but in general we are all lovers of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog breed and we love our dogs. For us all Wolfdog.org has always been a precious mean of support, a source of knowledge thanks to its database, created thanks to the helpfulness of thousands of people that saw in the site set up by Margo and Przemek a true aid in the development of the breed, free from the conditionings and from the influences of big breeders and "lobbies ". Its strength is the great quantity of data it gathers, also and above all the ones that someone wanted to keep hidden, together with the existence of few equal rules for everybody, without favoritisms for this or that faction. Recently there have been some changes in the stud dogs list that have aroused some worries, it seems in fact that there has been a discriminatory treatment towards the Italian breeding dogs, in particular one: Voice of Wolf z Molu Es, HD A - ED 0/1, has been excluded from the list without neither notices nor explanations, and only thanks to a thread on the English forum the owner has learned the reason: “The dogs was removed because in the most cases the elbow problem were hidden by their owners and elbow problems start to spread among the breed. While before there were also none known cases of ED-dysplasia it is getting more and more problematic and every month I'm getting information about new ED-infected dogs.” (ADMIN) But despite this declaration, all the dogs whose elbows were not tested or those with hidden results stayed in the list. Besides, the problem of the elbow dysplasia is complex and it’s not clear on what data the statistic has been evaluated, considering that until a few years ago the dogs’ elbow were not examined, and even today it’s only done in a few countries, (the 65% of the stud dogs with elbow scores is in the Italian list to 09/09/2009)* If the site is really a resource for everybody we ask that it applies equal rules for the users of every country. It would be a democratic gesture to discuss the rules BEFORE they were applied, and it would also make the scientific motivations behind them clearer. dany bonfiglioli hayla riko06 star sunnyna betti piccolino anastasia laila edha jal molisanodream starjumper erica&amy elisaP i piccy Antarctica arf woland77 aly87 matteo&martina valentina frafairy na mogwai divina maya ciao69 bricicca1 arnaldo it venerusoangelo giobi 81 tatanka1094 luca pisculli marco zach chiara.giardini m.greta Lyudmila Encheva roby e gaio sirius zattilio littlewolf fede86 denial odisseo sciamalaia robykut MariNoor amaguk ezibaby gilda ste chepi ciao69 riko06 mat littlewolf hadankama ovogibba wolflinx germans ornella vassel laila martab navarre __________________ Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau

01-19-2010, 20:31	#2
Mikael Scandinavian Member Zarejestrowany: Dec 2007 Skąd: Stockholm Postów: 1,089	Please add my name to the list to, I vote for 100% HD and ED result info on ALL Stud Dogs. Best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

01-19-2010, 21:29	#3
mijke Senior Member Zarejestrowany: Sep 2003 Skąd: Warnsveld Postów: 2,033	For me the most honest and objective way would be to publish all stud dogs on the list with their HD and ED results. And breeders who want to use a stud dog are smart enough always to ask the owner for copy's of all the official results before covering! And based on this info they can make their own choose for combinations. And yes there are now dogs with hidden results, or without results. Because not in all countries (or breed clubs) it is common or obligated to make ED x rays. So it will be good to when we explain and explain again in every country, on wolfdog and in club magazines why it is also important to make ED xrays! Till now in Holland only 1 (!) CsW was tested for ED. And not because the other owners want to hide things!!! But because it is not a common or standard procedure in my country. (only for some breeds) That is why I also did write an article about ED in the Dutch club magazine. And I hope that in future more and more CsW will have ED results. But for me it is not honest (and smart) only to remove the CsW's with positive ED results from the studdog list. While all other males with hidden or without results can be on the stud dog list. __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

01-22-2010, 18:54	#5
Mikael Scandinavian Member Zarejestrowany: Dec 2007 Skąd: Stockholm Postów: 1,089	Yes 72-0 this far Equal rights and justice on the stud list please / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

01-22-2010, 22:29	#8
mijke Senior Member Zarejestrowany: Sep 2003 Skąd: Warnsveld Postów: 2,033	75-1 You did forget my first post __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

01-22-2010, 22:14	#7
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Zarejestrowany: Sep 2003 Skąd: Bad Dürkheim Postów: 2,249	74, I don´t see any sense in not showing bad results in studdogs, I want to know as much as possible about studs and their offspring. Ina

01-22-2010, 22:56	#9
Nebulosa Moderator Zarejestrowany: Oct 2004 Skąd: Rio Grande do Sul Postów: 1,334	76 Maybe we should actualize the list? __________________

01-23-2010, 15:39	#12
jmvdwiel Senior Member Zarejestrowany: Apr 2007 Postów: 1,061	I'm against of moving the dogs wih ED problems of the list, in Holland as Mijke already mentioned ED is not nescessary yet for breeding. That is the reason why I didn't do the test yet, If my dog would be selected as a stud dog (which I now think he is to young for), than I can still make the x-ray if the female is x-rayed. For now I don't have any problems, so for his health I don't have to make the pictures, and of course I know you cannot believe somebody on his/her words. So why not just put the results in the list, so that every breeder can select the right male/female for his/her dog, I don't think the average wolfdog visitor is THAT stupid that he cannot make a choice for himself. So I am AGAINST of removing the dogs without he ED results. Ostatnio edytowane przez jmvdwiel ; 01-23-2010 o 19:18

01-23-2010, 19:19	#14
jmvdwiel Senior Member Zarejestrowany: Apr 2007 Postów: 1,061	I don't think you need anaesthesia for the elbows (with a normal dog )

01-25-2010, 17:01	#16
AMERICANI Member Zarejestrowany: Feb 2008 Skąd: Planet Earth Postów: 111	AmeriCani Kennels Please add me too!

01-26-2010, 18:31	#17
Martab Distinguished Member Zarejestrowany: Feb 2009 Skąd: Verona Postów: 4,419	Hallo, nice to meet everyone! Let's actualize the list: dany bonfiglioli hayla riko06 star sunnyna betti piccolino anastasia laila edha jal molisanodream starjumper erica&amy elisaP i piccy Antarctica arf woland77 aly87 matteo&martina valentina frafairy na mogwai divina maya ciao69 bricicca1 arnaldo it venerusoangelo giobi 81 tatanka1094 luca pisculli marco zach chiara.giardini m.greta Lyudmila Encheva roby e gaio sirius zattilio littlewolf fede86 denial odisseo sciamalaia robykut MariNoor amaguk ezibaby gilda ste chepi ciao69 riko06 mat littlewolf hadankama ovogibba wolflinx germans ornella vassel laila martab navarre Mikael Runningwolf z Peronoòwki michaelundinaeicchorn mijke Nebulosa Rona Americani whereas Jmvdwiel is "against of removing the dogs without ED results", but I guess not against including dogs WITH ED results, whatever the result is. Is it correct? Are we in 78 or 79? __________________ Marta & GlockArian

01-26-2010, 18:46	#18
sciamalaia Senior Member Zarejestrowany: Jul 2009 Skąd: Mestre Postów: 2,300	I think we should include dogs with any results of ED in the list and not to exclude people who do not have the results yet. I think it is better to know that hiding, since it is not an official list of a specific club . If I'm wrong or if you do not agree please say your opinion ..