Working Kennels

Hanka · 12-05-2010, 09:51

Here in Czech does not exist "typicle working kennel", which produce ONLY pups for work. In a few kennels are good working wolfdogs and "normal"

wolfdogs too. But I think much owners and breeders here know, exist parts of families, parts of bloodlines ( better is to say groups, because we have wolfdogs in groups), where are really good working wolfdogs. I don´t count their exams (maybe they don´t work in reall and they have not exams), but they have really good working possibilities. They bark, they aport, they do obedience with pleasure, quickly, their eyes hungs on eyes of owner during obedience.....This character is very similar to malinois. It is not utopie, they really exist.
For me is a pitty, if future owners, which want work with wolfdog, does not ask some breeders here (or in some other countries). I hope everybody can advice something. Every next owner can ask a few kennels and ask about good working parents. Emails are gratis, so why don´t write 10, 20 emails to breeders and ask?
Sad is, if owner of puppy really want to do something with puppy, but it is not possible for his character. Is much of these owners which tell : "wolfdog is not breed for work. I had one, I wont train him, but it is not possible".......

And problem is only this, he did not informate before buying of puppy.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 12-05-2010, 10:25

Again these are dogs that are doing sports, if I would look for a good dog for film-work I would look for a dog with this charakter, it would be easier to handle for this kind of work (a problem would often be the not so wolfish look in many of those dogs) but if I would look for a new trailer for non-sport work I would rather look for a different kind of dog. Cause I can teach every CSW enough obedience but it is much more difficult to get a Mallinois-kind of dog to make decisions against the thought will of the owner during work as a trailer has to make.
And I have never met a wolfdog that couldn´t work at all and had a normal socialisation but very many owners that wanted some kind of housewolf and got one due to their handling. And very many owners of every kind of breed that had the opinion that their poor results on their dog was due to it´s breed, in about 99% it was due to their handling.

Ina

Wolfsfreundin · 12-05-2010, 11:20

I read your answer with interest. I have German Shephards for 17 years now and we are very interested in TWHs as our next dog. From the German Shephards I know that there are working breeds and good looking breeds. Is that the same with TWHs?

We are looking for a robust healthy dog. Is there any specific code that we need to look out for?

Looking forward to receiving your answer.

Carmen

yukidomari · 12-05-2010, 14:09

Excellent posts Ina.

There is a big difference between sports such as SchH and actual working like personal protection, K9, etc. And I have learned from K9 handlers here that many dogs that excel in SchH are not suitable for actual work.. such as, poor judgment, low nerve, excitable, high prey drive.

Many GSDs from certain regions have been criticized for being overly sporty, which to me is just as bad as overly concentrated on show. Some friends who have dogs in SchH classes say some sections of it are just 'glorified games of tug of war'.

I very much like Hanka's post too. At least in the countries whose dog fancy I generally know, kennels are usually divided quite clearly between "show" (multiple show Champions, etc) and "work/sport" (concentration on some type of work/emphasis on character- even if not real work). So people usually pick between one or the other. For example, you probably would not get a show Australian Shepherd if you had a farm for it to work on, because it would very likely not be able to do, or be able to do well, the work. This is independent of training or handling.

There is very rarely a kennel that concentrates on both at the same time, those are considered excellent kennels. It's interesting to hear that this isn't so in Czech Republic.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 12-05-2010, 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Excellent posts Ina.

The difference between sports such as SchH and actual working like personal protection, K9, etc is very different. And I have learned from K9 handlers here that many dogs that excel in SchH are not suitable for actual work.. such as, poor judgment, low nerve, excitable, high prey drive.

Many GSDs from certain regions have been criticized for being overly sporty, which to me is just as bad as overly concentrated on show. Some friends who have dogs in SchH classes say some sections of it are just 'glorified games of tug of war'.

The German police will fully agree with that, they face the same problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I very much like Hanka's post too. At least in the countries whose dog fancy I generally know, kennels are usually divided quite clearly between "show" (multiple show Champions, etc) and "work/sport" (concentration on some type of work/emphasis on character- even if not real work). So people usually pick between one or the other. For example, you probably would not get a show Australian Shepherd if you had a farm for it to work on, because it would very likely not be able to do, or be able to do well, the work. This is independent of training or handling.

There is very rarely a kennel that concentrates on both at the same time, those are considered excellent kennels. It's interesting to hear that this isn't so in Czech Republic.

Luckily our breed isn´t that divided yet you will be able to work with most dogs but if you only want to go for Schutzhund-sports you will be better of with some Czech lines.
I find it much better to keep the breed on a level with dogs that are able to work and have a good exterieur. And I sometimes have the impression that on both sides it is often an excuse for using dogs that are not good for one of this two sides. Especially many so called working dogs are very bad in exterieur and their working abilitiy is used as a reason for breeding them, very often their abilities are not over avarage level. And vice versa of course.

13-05-2010, 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I sometimes have the impression that on both sides it is often an excuse for using dogs that are not good for one of this two sides. Especially many so called working dogs are very bad in exterieur and their working abilitiy is used as a reason for breeding them, very often their abilities are not over avarage level. And vice versa of course.

This is SO TRUE!! I've noticed this SO much with breeders of all types of dogs. It's glaringly obvious in a lot of show breeds how their original temperaments have been watered down to make manageable show dogs, but people rarely mention how it works the other way with working/sporting dogs. I mean, why would you breed a dog with incorrect structure when it's possible to find another dog with the same temperament/drive that DOES fit well with the standard? I mean, obviously there are more things at play, but I definitely see what you mean about people using such things as an excuse.

Also, I love reading when you talk about your trailing dogs. Every time you mention the temperaments required to do the work, I get excited about the possibility of doing the same thing some day.

I might come to you for advice whenever I can finally get my first CSV!

Gypsy Wolf · 13-05-2010, 00:20

To Hanka, from my interpretation of the working requirements in the initial development of the breed, they were supposed to be excellent working dogs. That was the goal.
Coming from Malinois and German highline German Shepherds, I do not expect the vlcak to BE either of these breeds, but to have some characteristics that they do - traits that make a good working dog. Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.
To Mikael and Ina, I greatly appreciate your input. My girlfriend and I have both fallen in love with the vlcak and don't want to change them or expect them to be a different breed, but we want to preserve and enhance working characteristics in the breed - the goal, eventually, to be known for good working vlcaks. Of course, this will be some time in the future as our current vlcaks are just infants, and who knows what the future holds...
In any breeding program, care must be taken to stay true to the breed, so that there IS no dichotomy between "pretty" vlcaks and "working" vlcaks.
There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true?
I do know a Schutzhund helper who says the lighter a dog's eyes are the nervier it is. I do not have the same experience with eye color, as I have worked with a broad spectrum of breeds - many of whom have a range of eye color. He focuses on German, Dutch & Belgian Shepherds...
So I look forward to seeing the evolution of the vlcak toward the ideal that Karel Hartl envisioned... after all, that is the goal, right?

yukidomari · 13-05-2010, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true?

I do believe there is some correlation between physiology and behavior - sort of a removed example, but I think you'd find the Russian silver fox domestication project very interesting.

Ear dropping, tail wagging, and different fur colors appeared in the group of foxes selectively bred for generations for human friendliness. Also, the skull morphology is markedly broader than their wild, unfriendly cousins.

Gypsy Wolf · 13-05-2010, 02:27

I know in GSD the "coated" dogs do possess more collie-like characteristics than their short-haired counterparts. Collies had been introduced to the GSD back in the day and the plush coat, longer face, softer ears and softer temperament pop up frequently - at least in the "highlines"...
And in both mixed-breed litters or major out-cross litters, the general rule of thumb is that the pup will behave more like the parent it resembles.
I will say that I see a lot of potential in both my Luna and my girlfriend's Pollux. What remains to be seen is if we are capable of fully developing those gifts. I do firmly believe that my dogs' only limitations are my own ability to teach them.

12-05-2010, 14:09	#4
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Excellent posts Ina. There is a big difference between sports such as SchH and actual working like personal protection, K9, etc. And I have learned from K9 handlers here that many dogs that excel in SchH are not suitable for actual work.. such as, poor judgment, low nerve, excitable, high prey drive. Many GSDs from certain regions have been criticized for being overly sporty, which to me is just as bad as overly concentrated on show. Some friends who have dogs in SchH classes say some sections of it are just 'glorified games of tug of war'. I very much like Hanka's post too. At least in the countries whose dog fancy I generally know, kennels are usually divided quite clearly between "show" (multiple show Champions, etc) and "work/sport" (concentration on some type of work/emphasis on character- even if not real work). So people usually pick between one or the other. For example, you probably would not get a show Australian Shepherd if you had a farm for it to work on, because it would very likely not be able to do, or be able to do well, the work. This is independent of training or handling. There is very rarely a kennel that concentrates on both at the same time, those are considered excellent kennels. It's interesting to hear that this isn't so in Czech Republic. Last edited by yukidomari; 12-05-2010 at 14:39.

12-05-2010, 09:51	#1
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Here in Czech does not exist "typicle working kennel", which produce ONLY pups for work. In a few kennels are good working wolfdogs and "normal" wolfdogs too. But I think much owners and breeders here know, exist parts of families, parts of bloodlines ( better is to say groups, because we have wolfdogs in groups), where are really good working wolfdogs. I don´t count their exams (maybe they don´t work in reall and they have not exams), but they have really good working possibilities. They bark, they aport, they do obedience with pleasure, quickly, their eyes hungs on eyes of owner during obedience.....This character is very similar to malinois. It is not utopie, they really exist. For me is a pitty, if future owners, which want work with wolfdog, does not ask some breeders here (or in some other countries). I hope everybody can advice something. Every next owner can ask a few kennels and ask about good working parents. Emails are gratis, so why don´t write 10, 20 emails to breeders and ask? Sad is, if owner of puppy really want to do something with puppy, but it is not possible for his character. Is much of these owners which tell : "wolfdog is not breed for work. I had one, I wont train him, but it is not possible"....... And problem is only this, he did not informate before buying of puppy.

12-05-2010, 10:25	#2
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Again these are dogs that are doing sports, if I would look for a good dog for film-work I would look for a dog with this charakter, it would be easier to handle for this kind of work (a problem would often be the not so wolfish look in many of those dogs) but if I would look for a new trailer for non-sport work I would rather look for a different kind of dog. Cause I can teach every CSW enough obedience but it is much more difficult to get a Mallinois-kind of dog to make decisions against the thought will of the owner during work as a trailer has to make. And I have never met a wolfdog that couldn´t work at all and had a normal socialisation but very many owners that wanted some kind of housewolf and got one due to their handling. And very many owners of every kind of breed that had the opinion that their poor results on their dog was due to it´s breed, in about 99% it was due to their handling. Ina

12-05-2010, 11:20	#3
Wolfsfreundin Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Vettweiß, NRW Posts: 5	I read your answer with interest. I have German Shephards for 17 years now and we are very interested in TWHs as our next dog. From the German Shephards I know that there are working breeds and good looking breeds. Is that the same with TWHs? We are looking for a robust healthy dog. Is there any specific code that we need to look out for? Looking forward to receiving your answer. Carmen

13-05-2010, 00:20	#7
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	To Hanka, from my interpretation of the working requirements in the initial development of the breed, they were supposed to be excellent working dogs. That was the goal. Coming from Malinois and German highline German Shepherds, I do not expect the vlcak to BE either of these breeds, but to have some characteristics that they do - traits that make a good working dog. Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well. To Mikael and Ina, I greatly appreciate your input. My girlfriend and I have both fallen in love with the vlcak and don't want to change them or expect them to be a different breed, but we want to preserve and enhance working characteristics in the breed - the goal, eventually, to be known for good working vlcaks. Of course, this will be some time in the future as our current vlcaks are just infants, and who knows what the future holds... In any breeding program, care must be taken to stay true to the breed, so that there IS no dichotomy between "pretty" vlcaks and "working" vlcaks. There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true? I do know a Schutzhund helper who says the lighter a dog's eyes are the nervier it is. I do not have the same experience with eye color, as I have worked with a broad spectrum of breeds - many of whom have a range of eye color. He focuses on German, Dutch & Belgian Shepherds... So I look forward to seeing the evolution of the vlcak toward the ideal that Karel Hartl envisioned... after all, that is the goal, right?

13-05-2010, 02:27	#9
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I know in GSD the "coated" dogs do possess more collie-like characteristics than their short-haired counterparts. Collies had been introduced to the GSD back in the day and the plush coat, longer face, softer ears and softer temperament pop up frequently - at least in the "highlines"... And in both mixed-breed litters or major out-cross litters, the general rule of thumb is that the pup will behave more like the parent it resembles. I will say that I see a lot of potential in both my Luna and my girlfriend's Pollux. What remains to be seen is if we are capable of fully developing those gifts. I do firmly believe that my dogs' only limitations are my own ability to teach them.