Calculation of Wolf blood?

elf · 12-06-2010, 13:15

Hi,

Here are some more here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...t=10934&page=2

Also these ones:

I guess there're more on this site. The ones in the snow really rocks, I did not find any better !

Cheers

12-06-2010, 13:29

Elf, thanks for the photos.

I love seeing pictures of Carpathian wolves, since I've mainly had knowledge/experience with American Timber wolves. I like seeing the differences and the structure, since THIS is where the CsV comes from! I also think it's interesting that if you look at CsVs all the time, you think how amazingly wolfy they look, then you put them NEXT to a wolf and you realize, yes, they really are just DOGS!

Regarding "wolfblood", I think the calculation really can only be considered a fun pastime. There's really no such thing as "wolf genes" vs. "dog genes", it's all DNA!

During reproduction, DNA combines, changes around, and mutates. There's really no looking at it saying, "This strand is wolf, while this other strand is dog," unless my understanding of genetics is WAY off.

So, really, the way I see it, is CsVs are dogs with recent wolf ancestry when compared to other breeds. It'd be interesting to study the DNA, though, since GSDs are actually one of the breeds farthest away from wolves in DNA. I'm curious to know where CsVs would fit on that scale!

http://www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm
(Dogs closer to the top of the list are closest to wolves genetically.)

hanninadina · 12-06-2010, 14:37

Vicky, what do you mean where the csw fits in the scale? Where shall a F 6 wolfdog fit? Right, near the wolf. The wolf genes are not "cooked" away.... Look at csv statistic, lots of the csw have at minimum two wolves in their lines, but a few have more or all 4 wolves.

Christian

12-06-2010, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Vicky, what do you mean where the csw fits in the scale? Where shall a F 6 wolfdog fit? Right, near the wolf. The wolf genes are not "cooked" away.... Look at csv statistic, lots of the csw have at minimum two wolves in their lines, but a few have more or all 4 wolves.

Christian

What I'm saying is that genes are always combining and changing into something new with every generation. With GSDs being so different to wolves genetically (in comparison with other breeds) it only makes sense that CsVs might fall farther away than some other breeds, despite the difference in recent genetic addition. The more people breed selectively and move the breed towards a cohesive standard, the more the genes are going to mutate into their own general group, neither wolf nor GSD. If you look at the breeds closer to wolves genetically vs. the breeds farther away, the differences aren't in when the last wolves were actually introduced, it's in how much "interference" humans give vs. nature. The breeds near the top of the list developed mainly without help, where the breeds near the bottom are more biddable and more "touched" by humans. THIS is why I'm curious where the CsV stands, it's quite possible the dogs are further from wolves than people want to admit.

Gypsy Wolf · 13-06-2010, 01:03

Supposedly, one of the founding ancestors of the GSD (grandparent of Horand) was a WOLF, so I am not quite sure about the genetic "study" that says GSD are the breed "furthest away" from the wolf... I would say they are one of the ones that, aside from CsV and Saarloos, have the closest traceable link - most recent ancestry to the wolf. And there are also whispers of wolves being brought into the GSD early on in it's development, not to mention the whispers about the wolf blood in the Czechoslovakian strain of GSDs - word is that the Pohranicni Straze breeders kept some of the wolf-dog crosses in their GSD breeding program, which may be what accounts for the morphoogical and behavioral differences between the Czech GSDs and other lines...
Also I just wanted to say that Bezinka really looks (to me) like our Eastern Coyote, as opposed to the North American wolf. She is gorgeous. I, personally, have always had an admiration for coyotes due to their intelligence, resourcefulness and adaptability. Heck, they EASILY live in our urban areas - from downtown Chicago to NYC's Central Park! Whereas wolves need specific habitats in which to live... Clever Coyote, the Trickster, seems to be able to live right alongside us here and not get noticed much...

hanninadina · 13-06-2010, 11:26

Vicky, I am sorry to say but I can not follow your arguments. It make no sense having a wolf in 6. generation in front of my for example Myla Crying Wolf and you try to say that she is far away from wolf? Did you ever tell that in the US to the people who made beast out of hybrids which they definetly not are? Your arguments would be the same.

But what is much more important is, that in 2007 in germany (poland) they made genetic studies, at the place where they researched the genes from germanies wolves, with the genetic material from csw and saarloos. And what can I tell you, the result was, that csw are wolf mixes!

From logical point of view your ideas can not match.

Bob Wayne even find out that under 85 pure breed dogs there are ancient breeds like Basenji, Saluki, Akita, Malamute, Siberian Husky, ChowChow and a few others there is wolf in them! He calls ancient breeds the ones who are older than 500 years. So if you notice that you can imagine that they will find a lot of wolf in the breed like csw.

Christian

Angelika · 12-06-2010, 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Thank you, tony

... especially for the dog on the left. I thought there´s only one with this "trademark"

koboldine · 12-06-2010, 14:58

Hach... you mean the right angle carried half above the back is a registred Trademark??? Of whom?

Looks funny....

@elf thanks for digging out these pics. I totally agree that I need to look at wolves more often to remember my dog being just that: a dog

elf · 15-06-2010, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika

Thank you, tony

... especially for the dog on the left. I thought there´s only one with this "trademark"

More Besinka pics, beautiful:

http://alissea.rajce.idnes.cz/Arya%2Csmecka_a_vlk/

http://alissea.rajce.idnes.cz/csv_Ar...ka_a_borderak/

http://alissea.rajce.idnes.cz/Arya,_..._vlcice/#album

Angelika · 17-06-2010, 00:54

Ouuuff ... thanks, tony

I think you are right: mutara seems to be only the visible part of the iceberg.

hanninadina · 17-06-2010, 08:29

Did he wrote this - iceberg - here in the thread?

There is no iceberg, only a small mountain like in the northern part of germany where there are no mountains.

r0d · 22-06-2010, 21:36

Hi everybody !

I often read some other country forums on WD, but i'm only active on the french forum. But this time i'm comming out of the shadows (it's a translation of a french expression, don't know if you understand it

).

Besinka is absolutely beautiful and i have just discovered those pictures.
When i see pictures it's seems that in it's head it's more a dog than a wolf (i might be wrong... but that's what pictures inspires me) and this is the first time i see a wolf so close to human and dog (except some wolves in US).
Is there somewhere i can learn more about Besinka and it's story ?
A blog, a website, whatever...

I love wolves, i love wolfdogs, (yeah i'm sure i'm not the only one here ^^) and... i'm really curious !

Thanks

hanninadina · 22-06-2010, 22:49

A wolf with a head of a dog???? Besi is a two year old carpathian wolf. There is no website to see. Sometimes she is in the czech republic in summer camps. But you do not seem to know how a wolf look...

There are lots of wolves who walk with people!

Christian

Angelika · 22-06-2010, 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by r0d

But this time i'm comming out of the shadows

Fine to meet you here, r0d

I don´t think you´ll find a blog or something else. People who own such animals normally stay in the shadow

12-06-2010, 13:15	#1
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Hi, Here are some more here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...t=10934&page=2 Also these ones: I guess there're more on this site. The ones in the snow really rocks, I did not find any better ! Cheers __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

12-06-2010, 14:58	#8
koboldine Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 472	Hach... you mean the right angle carried half above the back is a registred Trademark??? Of whom? Looks funny.... @elf thanks for digging out these pics. I totally agree that I need to look at wolves more often to remember my dog being just that: a dog __________________ Kein Mensch darf mir meine Schwächen so deutlich zeigen, wie meine (Wolfs-)Hunde es tun.

22-06-2010, 21:36	#12
r0d Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,362	Hi everybody ! I often read some other country forums on WD, but i'm only active on the french forum. But this time i'm comming out of the shadows (it's a translation of a french expression, don't know if you understand it ). Besinka is absolutely beautiful and i have just discovered those pictures. When i see pictures it's seems that in it's head it's more a dog than a wolf (i might be wrong... but that's what pictures inspires me) and this is the first time i see a wolf so close to human and dog (except some wolves in US). Is there somewhere i can learn more about Besinka and it's story ? A blog, a website, whatever... I love wolves, i love wolfdogs, (yeah i'm sure i'm not the only one here ^^) and... i'm really curious ! Thanks __________________ Le blog de Follow -- La Confrérie Lupoïde -- chien-loup tchécoslovaque

12-06-2010, 13:29	#2
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	Elf, thanks for the photos. I love seeing pictures of Carpathian wolves, since I've mainly had knowledge/experience with American Timber wolves. I like seeing the differences and the structure, since THIS is where the CsV comes from! I also think it's interesting that if you look at CsVs all the time, you think how amazingly wolfy they look, then you put them NEXT to a wolf and you realize, yes, they really are just DOGS! Regarding "wolfblood", I think the calculation really can only be considered a fun pastime. There's really no such thing as "wolf genes" vs. "dog genes", it's all DNA! During reproduction, DNA combines, changes around, and mutates. There's really no looking at it saying, "This strand is wolf, while this other strand is dog," unless my understanding of genetics is WAY off. So, really, the way I see it, is CsVs are dogs with recent wolf ancestry when compared to other breeds. It'd be interesting to study the DNA, though, since GSDs are actually one of the breeds farthest away from wolves in DNA. I'm curious to know where CsVs would fit on that scale! http://www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm (Dogs closer to the top of the list are closest to wolves genetically.)

12-06-2010, 14:37	#3
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Vicky, what do you mean where the csw fits in the scale? Where shall a F 6 wolfdog fit? Right, near the wolf. The wolf genes are not "cooked" away.... Look at csv statistic, lots of the csw have at minimum two wolves in their lines, but a few have more or all 4 wolves. Christian

13-06-2010, 01:03	#5
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Supposedly, one of the founding ancestors of the GSD (grandparent of Horand) was a WOLF, so I am not quite sure about the genetic "study" that says GSD are the breed "furthest away" from the wolf... I would say they are one of the ones that, aside from CsV and Saarloos, have the closest traceable link - most recent ancestry to the wolf. And there are also whispers of wolves being brought into the GSD early on in it's development, not to mention the whispers about the wolf blood in the Czechoslovakian strain of GSDs - word is that the Pohranicni Straze breeders kept some of the wolf-dog crosses in their GSD breeding program, which may be what accounts for the morphoogical and behavioral differences between the Czech GSDs and other lines... Also I just wanted to say that Bezinka really looks (to me) like our Eastern Coyote, as opposed to the North American wolf. She is gorgeous. I, personally, have always had an admiration for coyotes due to their intelligence, resourcefulness and adaptability. Heck, they EASILY live in our urban areas - from downtown Chicago to NYC's Central Park! Whereas wolves need specific habitats in which to live... Clever Coyote, the Trickster, seems to be able to live right alongside us here and not get noticed much...

13-06-2010, 11:26	#6
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Vicky, I am sorry to say but I can not follow your arguments. It make no sense having a wolf in 6. generation in front of my for example Myla Crying Wolf and you try to say that she is far away from wolf? Did you ever tell that in the US to the people who made beast out of hybrids which they definetly not are? Your arguments would be the same. But what is much more important is, that in 2007 in germany (poland) they made genetic studies, at the place where they researched the genes from germanies wolves, with the genetic material from csw and saarloos. And what can I tell you, the result was, that csw are wolf mixes! From logical point of view your ideas can not match. Bob Wayne even find out that under 85 pure breed dogs there are ancient breeds like Basenji, Saluki, Akita, Malamute, Siberian Husky, ChowChow and a few others there is wolf in them! He calls ancient breeds the ones who are older than 500 years. So if you notice that you can imagine that they will find a lot of wolf in the breed like csw. Christian

17-06-2010, 00:54	#10
Angelika Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 847	Ouuuff ... thanks, tony I think you are right: mutara seems to be only the visible part of the iceberg.

17-06-2010, 08:29	#11
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Did he wrote this - iceberg - here in the thread? There is no iceberg, only a small mountain like in the northern part of germany where there are no mountains.

22-06-2010, 22:49	#13
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	A wolf with a head of a dog???? Besi is a two year old carpathian wolf. There is no website to see. Sometimes she is in the czech republic in summer camps. But you do not seem to know how a wolf look... There are lots of wolves who walk with people! Christian