DM is more spread in the breed then we thought!

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I think we have to stay a little bit calm at this point. There are breeds where DM/DM doesn´t automatically mean an ill dog, you need an aditional factor for the development of the symptoms. Research is still not finished.
The test needs to have another look on.

We don´t have enough tested dogs and we don´t have enough different tested lines. At the moment I am waiting for some more results of more lines of samples I have send in but these are still single dogs.
But I don´t think that this high percentage of dogs died of DM as it should have been looking at this results.

This doesn´t mean we shouldn´t care for the now known results in mating but we need much more tested dogs out of more countries, especially the Czech Repuplik, Slovakia and Italy!!! it is time to wake up, and we need an international working genetic management specialist.and research on this breed with this gene mutation!
We can´t carry on with the breed with pairing free to DM/N because we don´t have enough free dogs if these numbers are correct for the whole breed.

Ina

I am always sad to read postings like yours Ina, we hear similair with Saarloos... when i first was informed about both fci recognised wolfdog breeds i was told these dogs can reach a high age because of their health...
wenn other breeds have dm affected dogs which don't show symptoms when they die at 10 yrs of age, this might be a normal age to die... My Saarloos is 10 yrs old, and still a young dog. I know of Saarloos being put to sleep with dm at ages as young as 7 and 8 yrs old.. and i fear that might be similair with other breeds. If you ever experienced the frustrations of having to decide when it is the best time to put to sleep your dog with dm, and when you look at the vids that mijke posted, i don't know how anyone can seriously can even consider mating a dm/dm to dm/dm... for me breeding is improving, and minimalizing risk using all tools possible! Not taking risk and claiming it is ok to take this risk because research has not been finished completely to your satisfaction!

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by nanouk

. for me breeding is improving, and minimalizing risk using all tools possible! Not taking risk and claiming it is ok to take this risk because research has not been finished completely to your satisfaction!

You obviously got me wrong and as a vet I now more than enough about put dogs asleep. I did test my dogs and helped Mijke as much as I could. But I had a long phone call to a genetic specialist today and there is more about DM than this test.

Ina

[Mikael]

7 Affected (they have this disease)
17 Carrier (they carry the mutated gene)
6 Free

Is it possible that this first 30 tested dogs has a high number of carrier and affected dogs because of that the owners did suspect DM one there dog or in the line ???

And that the true number therefor will not be this high (bad) ???

Best regards / Mikael

[hanninadina]

Or maybe they are mostly from one breeder? Are these results from germany, maybe from the german clubshow in the mid of may? I know that there were more than 10 csw from one german breeder....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Is it possible that this first 30 tested dogs has a high number of carrier and affected dogs because of that the owners did suspect DM one there dog or in the line ???

And that the true number therefor will not be this high (bad) ???

Best regards / Mikael

The carriers and affected dogs are out of different lines and kennels we are awaiting more results the next weeks that are out of other lines. Due to the amount of tested dogs now that surely isn´t representativ the results may change but I doubt very much that there are no affected lines and that the numbers will change that much that a breeding program will be easy.
Again we need much more dogs out of much more countries!!!
And no, the owners didn´t test their dogs because they were suspecting these results (apart from two with ill dogs that were asked to do so) but because they are very engaged in the breeds benefit. We should be very aware that persons that try to fix the problem to lines or breeders, especially when they didn´t test their dogs, are not the ones we can count on in helping the breed.
To make breeding programs just for one distinctive mark and without knowing every aspect of this and scientific help is the quickest way to ruin a breed.
To ignore a problem and not to help by testing the dogs or sending in blood samples is almost as quick.

Ina

[mijke]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

The carriers and affected dogs are out of different lines and kennels we are awaiting more results the next weeks that are out of other lines. Due to the amount of tested dogs now that surely isn´t representativ the results may change but I doubt very much that there are no affected lines and that the numbers will change that much that a breeding program will be easy.
Again we need much more dogs out of much more countries!!!
And no, the owners didn´t test their dogs because they were suspecting these results (apart from two with ill dogs that were asked to do so) but because they are very engaged in the breeds benefit. We should be very aware that persons that try to fix the problem to lines or breeders, especially when they didn´t test their dogs, are not the ones we can count on in helping the breed.
To make breeding programs just for one distinctive mark and without knowing every aspect of this and scientific help is the quickest way to ruin a breed.
To ignore a problem and not to help by testing the dogs or sending in blood samples is almost as quick.

Ina

I agree 100% with this!!

On the Dutch forum was already more info about the lectures (for wolfdog owners and breeders) of dr. Paul Mandigers about DM .
So maybe it is good to give here also some more general info.

• DM is an old disease that exists in every breed and also in other not breed dogs
• Not all DM affected dogs get physical problems
• Probably creates a combination of more factors that a dog will get the physical problems

• Breeding of breed dogs is a closed system
• When higher homozygote in a breed : more genetic diseases, more behavior problems, less resistor, weaker performance, less vitality, more birth dead, and smaller litters
• Heterozygote is needed for a healthy population of a breed!

So as told before in other topics, the advice of genetic specialists:

• Try to breed as less Affected dogs as possible
• But don't exclude dogs for breeding!
• Try to keep the gene poule as broadly (and maxamize) as possible

On this moment only a very very small part of the population is tested.
Also old dogs and imported dogs were Carrier or Affected. So also in CsW breed it seems to be "an old disease" that did start in the past.
And probably it did start in earlier lines in countries of origin and a lot more CsW's can be Carrier or Affected.

So it will be good to test a lot more CsW's for DM!

Only then we can see how DM is spread in the breed and try to avoid that more Affected CsW's will be born!

[jmvdwiel]

Try to breed as less Affected dogs as possible should be interpretated as: Use all the dogs you have (even the affected, ofcourse not the ones that are showing symptoms of DM, that would't be fair to the dogs), don't exclude any dog, but make good combinations so that the number of Affected dogs wil drop dramaticly in the future.
When I see the numbers of affected versus Free dogs I don't know if it is possible to get rid of DM in one or 2 generations, but we can try to get the number of Affected dogs down , and hopefully in the future no more DM dogs wil be born.

greetings Judith

[Mikael]

Thanks Ina for your answer

I also do agree to this, more dogs most be tested !

( And I´m on my way to )

Originally Posted by mijke

So it will be good to test a lot more CsW's for DM!

Only then we can see how DM is spread in the breed and try to avoid that more Affected CsW's will be born!

[Sona_Bognarova]

Well, first of all, my compliments and thanks to all who try to help with this problem, namely Mijke and Ina. As it seems, DM has been here (in CSW population) long time, we just did not know about that. Let's face it now and let's not waste any more time with denying it or blaming anyone. Furthermore, I agree with Ina, it would be very hasty to make any conclusion now - we need more samples!
And this is something we all can help with! I talked already to couple of owners in Slovakia, who have old (over 10 years of age) dogs and they said "by all means, we will do it". Having an affected dog is no shame, people, but it would definitely be a crying shame to close the eyes now. It needs a lot of work to organise the collection of the blood samples in broader extent and I can't do much from here in practical means, just to support people like Mijke and Ina and to have my own dog tested as soon as possible. I truly believe that for sake of your own dogs and any of their potential offspring you, folks, will do your best to have them tested for DM as soon as practical.

Sonja