DM is more spread in the breed then we thought!

[mijke]

In the mean time 30 CsW's were tested for DM:(Degenerative Myelopathy)

7 Affected (they have this disease)
17 Carrier (they carry the mutated gene)
6 Free

Several of these 7 affected CsW's already have physical problems...

DM is an awful and horrible disease..... See for example thesd movies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IgH8...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybEoC...eature=related

But as owners and breeders we can stop that DM affected CsW's will be born!

The only thing we have to do is test a lot more CsW's and don't make crossings anymore with affected CsW's(DM/DM x DM/DM)

It is a pity that a several owners and breeders still deny DM exists in the breed!
And till now still a lot of CsW's puppy's of not tested parents are born.

But I hope that this topic will open eyes and more people will realize that DM can be a big thread for our breed...

[Nebulosa]

Curiosity question, could you please inform the age of the affected dogs wich already had show physical problems?
Looking the percentages now it's terribly worrying, I hope that more people will test and get free results, if it dont happen, the things gonna be very complicate.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I think we have to stay a little bit calm at this point. There are breeds where DM/DM doesn´t automatically mean an ill dog, you need an aditional factor for the development of the symptoms. Research is still not finished.
The test needs to have another look on.

We don´t have enough tested dogs and we don´t have enough different tested lines. At the moment I am waiting for some more results of more lines of samples I have send in but these are still single dogs.
But I don´t think that this high percentage of dogs died of DM as it should have been looking at this results.

This doesn´t mean we shouldn´t care for the now known results in mating but we need much more tested dogs out of more countries, especially the Czech Repuplik, Slovakia and Italy!!! it is time to wake up, and we need an international working genetic management specialist.and research on this breed with this gene mutation!
We can´t carry on with the breed with pairing free to DM/N because we don´t have enough free dogs if these numbers are correct for the whole breed.

Ina

[nanouk]

Envoyé par michaelundinaeichhorn

I think we have to stay a little bit calm at this point. There are breeds where DM/DM doesn´t automatically mean an ill dog, you need an aditional factor for the development of the symptoms. Research is still not finished.
The test needs to have another look on.

We don´t have enough tested dogs and we don´t have enough different tested lines. At the moment I am waiting for some more results of more lines of samples I have send in but these are still single dogs.
But I don´t think that this high percentage of dogs died of DM as it should have been looking at this results.

This doesn´t mean we shouldn´t care for the now known results in mating but we need much more tested dogs out of more countries, especially the Czech Repuplik, Slovakia and Italy!!! it is time to wake up, and we need an international working genetic management specialist.and research on this breed with this gene mutation!
We can´t carry on with the breed with pairing free to DM/N because we don´t have enough free dogs if these numbers are correct for the whole breed.

Ina

I am always sad to read postings like yours Ina, we hear similair with Saarloos... when i first was informed about both fci recognised wolfdog breeds i was told these dogs can reach a high age because of their health...
wenn other breeds have dm affected dogs which don't show symptoms when they die at 10 yrs of age, this might be a normal age to die... My Saarloos is 10 yrs old, and still a young dog. I know of Saarloos being put to sleep with dm at ages as young as 7 and 8 yrs old.. and i fear that might be similair with other breeds. If you ever experienced the frustrations of having to decide when it is the best time to put to sleep your dog with dm, and when you look at the vids that mijke posted, i don't know how anyone can seriously can even consider mating a dm/dm to dm/dm... for me breeding is improving, and minimalizing risk using all tools possible! Not taking risk and claiming it is ok to take this risk because research has not been finished completely to your satisfaction!

[mijke]

Envoyé par Nebulosa

Curiosity question, could you please inform the age of the affected dogs wich already had show physical problems?
Looking the percentages now it's terribly worrying, I hope that more people will test and get free results, if it dont happen, the things gonna be very complicate.

3 Affected ones have physical problems. Their age: 8, 9 and 10.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Envoyé par nanouk

. for me breeding is improving, and minimalizing risk using all tools possible! Not taking risk and claiming it is ok to take this risk because research has not been finished completely to your satisfaction!

You obviously got me wrong and as a vet I now more than enough about put dogs asleep. I did test my dogs and helped Mijke as much as I could. But I had a long phone call to a genetic specialist today and there is more about DM than this test.

Ina

[Mikael]

7 Affected (they have this disease)
17 Carrier (they carry the mutated gene)
6 Free

Is it possible that this first 30 tested dogs has a high number of carrier and affected dogs because of that the owners did suspect DM one there dog or in the line ???

And that the true number therefor will not be this high (bad) ???

Best regards / Mikael

[hanninadina]

Or maybe they are mostly from one breeder? Are these results from germany, maybe from the german clubshow in the mid of may? I know that there were more than 10 csw from one german breeder....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Envoyé par Mikael

Is it possible that this first 30 tested dogs has a high number of carrier and affected dogs because of that the owners did suspect DM one there dog or in the line ???

And that the true number therefor will not be this high (bad) ???

Best regards / Mikael

The carriers and affected dogs are out of different lines and kennels we are awaiting more results the next weeks that are out of other lines. Due to the amount of tested dogs now that surely isn´t representativ the results may change but I doubt very much that there are no affected lines and that the numbers will change that much that a breeding program will be easy.
Again we need much more dogs out of much more countries!!!
And no, the owners didn´t test their dogs because they were suspecting these results (apart from two with ill dogs that were asked to do so) but because they are very engaged in the breeds benefit. We should be very aware that persons that try to fix the problem to lines or breeders, especially when they didn´t test their dogs, are not the ones we can count on in helping the breed.
To make breeding programs just for one distinctive mark and without knowing every aspect of this and scientific help is the quickest way to ruin a breed.
To ignore a problem and not to help by testing the dogs or sending in blood samples is almost as quick.

Ina

[mijke]

Envoyé par michaelundinaeichhorn

The carriers and affected dogs are out of different lines and kennels we are awaiting more results the next weeks that are out of other lines. Due to the amount of tested dogs now that surely isn´t representativ the results may change but I doubt very much that there are no affected lines and that the numbers will change that much that a breeding program will be easy.
Again we need much more dogs out of much more countries!!!
And no, the owners didn´t test their dogs because they were suspecting these results (apart from two with ill dogs that were asked to do so) but because they are very engaged in the breeds benefit. We should be very aware that persons that try to fix the problem to lines or breeders, especially when they didn´t test their dogs, are not the ones we can count on in helping the breed.
To make breeding programs just for one distinctive mark and without knowing every aspect of this and scientific help is the quickest way to ruin a breed.
To ignore a problem and not to help by testing the dogs or sending in blood samples is almost as quick.

Ina

I agree 100% with this!!

On the Dutch forum was already more info about the lectures (for wolfdog owners and breeders) of dr. Paul Mandigers about DM .
So maybe it is good to give here also some more general info.

• DM is an old disease that exists in every breed and also in other not breed dogs
• Not all DM affected dogs get physical problems
• Probably creates a combination of more factors that a dog will get the physical problems

• Breeding of breed dogs is a closed system
• When higher homozygote in a breed : more genetic diseases, more behavior problems, less resistor, weaker performance, less vitality, more birth dead, and smaller litters
• Heterozygote is needed for a healthy population of a breed!

So as told before in other topics, the advice of genetic specialists:

• Try to breed as less Affected dogs as possible
• But don't exclude dogs for breeding!
• Try to keep the gene poule as broadly (and maxamize) as possible

On this moment only a very very small part of the population is tested.
Also old dogs and imported dogs were Carrier or Affected. So also in CsW breed it seems to be "an old disease" that did start in the past.
And probably it did start in earlier lines in countries of origin and a lot more CsW's can be Carrier or Affected.

So it will be good to test a lot more CsW's for DM!

Only then we can see how DM is spread in the breed and try to avoid that more Affected CsW's will be born!

[jmvdwiel]

Try to breed as less Affected dogs as possible should be interpretated as: Use all the dogs you have (even the affected, ofcourse not the ones that are showing symptoms of DM, that would't be fair to the dogs), don't exclude any dog, but make good combinations so that the number of Affected dogs wil drop dramaticly in the future.
When I see the numbers of affected versus Free dogs I don't know if it is possible to get rid of DM in one or 2 generations, but we can try to get the number of Affected dogs down , and hopefully in the future no more DM dogs wil be born.

greetings Judith

[Mikael]

Thanks Ina for your answer

I also do agree to this, more dogs most be tested !

( And I´m on my way to )

Envoyé par mijke

So it will be good to test a lot more CsW's for DM!

Only then we can see how DM is spread in the breed and try to avoid that more Affected CsW's will be born!

[Sona_Bognarova]

Well, first of all, my compliments and thanks to all who try to help with this problem, namely Mijke and Ina. As it seems, DM has been here (in CSW population) long time, we just did not know about that. Let's face it now and let's not waste any more time with denying it or blaming anyone. Furthermore, I agree with Ina, it would be very hasty to make any conclusion now - we need more samples!
And this is something we all can help with! I talked already to couple of owners in Slovakia, who have old (over 10 years of age) dogs and they said "by all means, we will do it". Having an affected dog is no shame, people, but it would definitely be a crying shame to close the eyes now. It needs a lot of work to organise the collection of the blood samples in broader extent and I can't do much from here in practical means, just to support people like Mijke and Ina and to have my own dog tested as soon as possible. I truly believe that for sake of your own dogs and any of their potential offspring you, folks, will do your best to have them tested for DM as soon as practical.

Sonja

[loco]

What a results .
I wish the owners off the 7 dogs, a lot off strenght and wisdom.
Groette Martine.

[Gypsy Wolf]

I test ALL my stock - including the outside males I want to use, for DM. Of course, even in GSD, very few breeders WANT to know! If they don't know, it isn't there, right? That's attitude.It is something I educate puppy buyers on, and sadly, I am one of the very few GSD breeders who test... Personally, I don't even know any other GSD breeder who does.
I also plan on testing Luna. It is all about KNOWING so we can eradicate DM. This stupidity of ignoring it does nothing! And the lack of knowledge is appalling. It seems that the breeders here say the test is "BS" and they also think that if a dog is Affected or a Carrier no one should know because it will be bad... they have no idea of genetics.
Back in the day there was a male who was Affected - he was a World Team dog and AMAZING. I was going to breed to him (my bitch is Clear) and yes, I would breed Carriers, but then have spay/neuter contracts and the pick would be bred to a Clear and Presto! No DM in just a generation or two of careful breeding! But the only way to know is to test!

[yukidomari]

I think the problem is that there's more to DM than clear, carrier, or affected.

There is a factor X still unknown, because even dogs that test affected may not ever show any physical symptoms of DM. And wouldn't those dogs be OK to breed, especially in a breed without large numbers?

I agree that more research needs to be done regarding DM.

And GSD breeders rarely test for DM because it's so prevalent, if they were to only breed their clears or carriers it may very well wipe out lines that took them years to found. Kinda like how it's basically impossible to ask that Doberman breeders only breed vWD clear dogs when something like 60% of Dobes are said to be at the very least carriers.

[massimo]

Envoyé par Sona_Bognarova

Well, first of all, my compliments and thanks to all who try to help with this problem, namely Mijke and Ina. As it seems, DM has been here (in CSW population) long time, we just did not know about that. Let's face it now and let's not waste any more time with denying it or blaming anyone. Furthermore, I agree with Ina, it would be very hasty to make any conclusion now - we need more samples!
And this is something we all can help with! I talked already to couple of owners in Slovakia, who have old (over 10 years of age) dogs and they said "by all means, we will do it". Having an affected dog is no shame, people, but it would definitely be a crying shame to close the eyes now. It needs a lot of work to organise the collection of the blood samples in broader extent and I can't do much from here in practical means, just to support people like Mijke and Ina and to have my own dog tested as soon as possible. I truly believe that for sake of your own dogs and any of their potential offspring you, folks, will do your best to have them tested for DM as soon as practical.

Sonja

There is a bunch of owners in Italy who are sensitive to this argument.
Many others (even owners of "famous" dogs, from "famous" breeders, brothers of your dogs Ina...), ignore and laugh about it as if we were fighting against ghosts or ants...
We will do our best to spread the word and make as many tests as possible.
it would be best if we could unite our strength and get some low cost tests ( i heard it might happen soon), however, I will send samples of my own dogs hopefully this week, and many others are doing the same within September.
Thank you Sonja for your words, they are encouraging and brake away all the sniggering laughter I read on some Italian Forums.
What we need is some videos of CSWs with DMA to show in what state they COULD be or their offspring COULD be.
Massimo

[mijke]

Hi Massimo,

Thanks for your support in this subject!
And I am glad that also Italian CsW owners did contact me in private to get more information about DM

And I'll do my best to publish as soon as possible a "you tube" (without dog names!) of CsW's with physical DM problems.

But everybody also has to realize there is no reason for total "blind panic"!!
DM is an "old (genetic) disease" and also appears in "no breed" dogs.
Even not all by test proven "Affected dogs" seems to get all the physical problems. So also other factors seems to have influence in appearing physical DM problems (the same like with HD)

On this moment it would not be clever to make specific breeding rules based on the relative few CsW test DM test results !

But for the future of the breed it is necessary to test as much CsW's as possible, to see how this genetic disease is spread.

And of course in the meantime a lot of more research about DM is still needed!

PS
By the way, this all is the same for other genetic diseases like for example dwarfism! A lot of owners and breeders still deny this is a problem in the breed. And they are telling they did never see or hear about a CsW dwarf.
But in the meantime I have contact with several common CsW dwarf owners from different countries and from different lines..... But the most of them don't want to speak about this in public, because they don't want to harm the breeder....
The same I can tell about owners of CsW's with epilepsy, cancer, EPI and... Since I did start the wolfdog-healthinfo site, it is just like I did open "the box of Pandorra"!

So please don't believe any longer `the fairy tails` that CsW´s are the "most healthy breed" of the world!
Also in our beloved CsW breed, are just like in all other dog breeds : GENETIC HEALTH PROBLEMS!
And when we close our eyes and ignore all these problems (because of any reason you can think of), .....
About 50 years our breed will (just like many more breeds )not exist any longer!

So please be realistic, open your eyes and cooperate with research and testing of your dogs to save this wonderful breed for the future!

[Rona]

Mijke, I have one concern. I agree that breeders or people who have reps. should test as many of their dogs as possible. But what about those, who don't intend to use their dogs in breeding?

I'm not speaking about HD/ED or even PRA. These tests are easily available, not so expensive and in case of poor HD results the owners could take steps to offer their dogs extra protection (supplements etc.)

But the situation is different in case of expensive DNA tests! If the owners who are not interested in breeding decide to test their dog/s they would do it entirely for scientific reasons.

Wouldn't it make more sense to spend the money on helping dogs that have already been affected by the diseases than on testing dogs that will not pass their genes anyway!

[hanninadina]

Mijke, you are writing that a lot of people got in contact to you and told you that their dogs have healthy problems either. You wrote that they do not want to blame their breeder. Right?

Do you remember that you have been in germany in may to the speciality with your dwarf 6 month old csw? Afterwards we had some pn contact. People over there told me that that dwarf pup is from Ondraj. I did not know that it is your pup. When we were in contact, I did ask you, if it is true what I heard? I got til today no answer. If I look at Ondrajs litter, it has the same age like your puppy. But your name and dog is missing.... So if you really want to help the people and of course the breed csw, you can start and name the breeder where your ill puppy is coming from.

Other thing, it makes no sense if people make genetic test, if they do not want to breed because they can not change the history. Only the people who want to breed in future they are forced to do test.

But even so, the possibilities in genetic research develops very fast in the last years. No one will be able to breed truely healthy dogs. Sure it should be the aim. But the character of the dogs is important too. And if you compare dogs with people, you will not find lots of people who are healthy their whole life! What I mean is, that is nature! Only the strong survive! You can not manage everything. It would be a good thing if people start to be honest and breeders would not breed with ill dogs, like your breeder did. Maybe he did not know till his litter came. But now he has to stop breeding his bitch. And of course it must be stopped to do so much inbreeding.

I remember a few month ago everybody was saying, we do not need to breed in fresh wolfblood. So as I see it, it would help, but onyl from healthy wolves, becauses even in the wolfpopulation there are lots of problems because they came out of Zoos and Wildparks and were inbred!

So in the end, nature takes his toll. The minimum is that breeders stop to look for "old bloodlines". It makes no sense only to breed for "old lines" if they are not healthy.

Mijke you are really true, csw is same dog breed like every dog breed and is so ill or not like any other dog breed. To call them a healthy breed is for sure not true. They are average. Enjoy your live with your dogs and stop inbreeding. If they get ill than go to the vet. Like people do if they get ill.

Christian