Tamaskan Dogs..

Gypsy Wolf · 03-07-2010, 01:43

My point is, every breed gets a start somewhere - and there is a demand for dogs with good pet temperaments - certainly more of a demand for that nowadays as opposed to dogs that work.
Getting into a flurry over Tamaskan dogs is not going to change a thing. I would prefer to focus on this issues in our own breed.
I don't like to be judgmental about things like that - especially since, truth be told, I LIKE certain "created for pets" breeds like the Alaskan Klee Kai... they are adorable! And I think the world is a better place for having them in it.

yukidomari · 06-07-2010, 16:50

Tuuli - Thanks for the information. I was wondering when they would DNA test Whitefang to one of his offspring to conclusively make evidence.

Luna's mom et al; PB mixing issues asides, I agree that whatever dogs they use as a foundation to their breed is their business.

HOWEVER, marketing a dog as not having wolf content when it clearly does - and has some high-content ones at that (F2s etc) - is a lie and really should not be done, especially if that is the main selling point. If you are marketing your dog as an alternative to a wolfdog, then by principle it cannot have any wolf content. It is just not ethically correct to mislead people this way. It is not about purebreds, mixes, or otherwise.

Furthermore, you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health problems, etc.

There are many people buying Tamaskan dogs because they have been led to believe that these dogs do not have wolf content and therefore they don't need to deal with everything that is typically associated with one - including legal ramifications. This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible to mislead people concerning this area.

You are right when you say that as CSV people we consider CSVs dogs, but we are also upfront about there being the inclusion of wolf in the breeding.

Gypsy Wolf · 06-07-2010, 21:59

Legally, I don't think they are "lying" - in our own words, we promote CsVs as dogs. Technically, all dogs are descended from wolves. In the development of the breed, they have not used any wolves. So they can get away with it.
There are other breeders who do similar - www.noblepawz.com
You have to really pry to determine whether or not there is recent wolf in the "breed" as the breed creator sort of uses a lot of fast talk...
The bottom line is that people are going to buy what they want, and demand is what moves the market.

yukidomari · 06-07-2010, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

In the development of the breed, they have not used any wolves. So they can get away with it.

No, no, that's the problem. It's not just CSVs they've used, but actual pure wolves. Like 'Whitefang', a certified Interior Alaskan Tundra wolf. And recent, too. And, some deny the use of CSVs at all.. instead representing where Oskari falls as a purebred Siberian Husky (which CSVs are clearly not, both temperamentally and otherwise)..

And again, it's not about the content or what not, it's about being upfront about pedigree information. It's about correctly representing the dog.

Gypsy Wolf · 06-07-2010, 22:16

Ahh. OK, well that's just downright stupid! You can't brag about whitefang in your foundation and say there are no wolves! ???

yukidomari · 06-07-2010, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Ahh. OK, well that's just downright stupid! You can't brag about whitefang in your foundation and say there are no wolves! ???

You can when you change the name on the pedigree on whitefang's offspring, and list him as an unknown breed.. even when one of said offspring's littermates tested DNA positive for having whitefang as a sire....

Gypsy Wolf · 06-07-2010, 22:46

Sounds like Dutch Malinois...

Joswolf · 08-07-2010, 19:57

yOU SAY, QOUTE-you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health including ............ This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible

First if Valco is no wolf they used no wolf when the breeder of Valco is Polarspeed. Then he was the one who breeded a wolf in a husky. But who can prove Valco comes from a wolf? You now Polarspeed or Yescoline couse then you now you cannot thrust his breeding and no one nows about what he does couse he simply doesnot tell anyone.
Second i do not untherstand the isseu about potential health or dangerous please explain are wolves dangerous?
And you do not need to explain me what a wolf looks like i have a polar wolf and Kapatian wolves and mixes and i now exactly what they look like.
I also saw Tamaskan and the so called F2 and i find no signals that tell me it is a hybrid. At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect.
Jos

06-07-2010, 16:50	#2
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Tuuli - Thanks for the information. I was wondering when they would DNA test Whitefang to one of his offspring to conclusively make evidence. Luna's mom et al; PB mixing issues asides, I agree that whatever dogs they use as a foundation to their breed is their business. HOWEVER, marketing a dog as not having wolf content when it clearly does - and has some high-content ones at that (F2s etc) - is a lie and really should not be done, especially if that is the main selling point. If you are marketing your dog as an alternative to a wolfdog, then by principle it cannot have any wolf content. It is just not ethically correct to mislead people this way. It is not about purebreds, mixes, or otherwise. Furthermore, you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health problems, etc. There are many people buying Tamaskan dogs because they have been led to believe that these dogs do not have wolf content and therefore they don't need to deal with everything that is typically associated with one - including legal ramifications. This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible to mislead people concerning this area. You are right when you say that as CSV people we consider CSVs dogs, but we are also upfront about there being the inclusion of wolf in the breeding. Last edited by yukidomari; 06-07-2010 at 17:01.

03-07-2010, 01:43	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	My point is, every breed gets a start somewhere - and there is a demand for dogs with good pet temperaments - certainly more of a demand for that nowadays as opposed to dogs that work. Getting into a flurry over Tamaskan dogs is not going to change a thing. I would prefer to focus on this issues in our own breed. I don't like to be judgmental about things like that - especially since, truth be told, I LIKE certain "created for pets" breeds like the Alaskan Klee Kai... they are adorable! And I think the world is a better place for having them in it.

06-07-2010, 21:59	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Legally, I don't think they are "lying" - in our own words, we promote CsVs as dogs. Technically, all dogs are descended from wolves. In the development of the breed, they have not used any wolves. So they can get away with it. There are other breeders who do similar - www.noblepawz.com You have to really pry to determine whether or not there is recent wolf in the "breed" as the breed creator sort of uses a lot of fast talk... The bottom line is that people are going to buy what they want, and demand is what moves the market.

06-07-2010, 22:16	#5
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Ahh. OK, well that's just downright stupid! You can't brag about whitefang in your foundation and say there are no wolves! ???

06-07-2010, 22:46	#7
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Sounds like Dutch Malinois...

08-07-2010, 19:57	#8
Joswolf Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 757	yOU SAY, QOUTE-you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health including ............ This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible First if Valco is no wolf they used no wolf when the breeder of Valco is Polarspeed. Then he was the one who breeded a wolf in a husky. But who can prove Valco comes from a wolf? You now Polarspeed or Yescoline couse then you now you cannot thrust his breeding and no one nows about what he does couse he simply doesnot tell anyone. Second i do not untherstand the isseu about potential health or dangerous please explain are wolves dangerous? And you do not need to explain me what a wolf looks like i have a polar wolf and Kapatian wolves and mixes and i now exactly what they look like. I also saw Tamaskan and the so called F2 and i find no signals that tell me it is a hybrid. At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect. Jos