Typical temperament of CsWs

[z Peronówki]

I don't want to talk about Gisu but the topic is really interesting at all...

Originally Posted by jasmine

.and I'm realy happy that he is not agressive and/or dominant like many other dogs.

Why you list dominance as minus? Typical CsW males are pretty dominant - just take a look on any champion class on any bigger club show... It is (almost everytime) full a DOMINANT, self-confident males...

Originally Posted by jasmine

But for me much more acceptable this kind of behaviour than agressivity....(and I could write examples but I don't want to be personal....)

What you call "agression"? Are dogs trained for protection work "agressive"? Dogs protecting their pack show "agressive" behaviour according to you?

I just want to understand....

[jasmine]

c'on Margo...you understand very well what I wrote!

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by jasmine

c'on Margo...you understand very well what I wrote!

NO, I'm really not....

A dog with IPO is an agressive dog? CsW protecting the house or working as watch dog - is it an agressive dog? Is dominant dog an agressive dog?

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

NO, I'm really not....

A dog with IPO is an agressive dog? CsW protecting the house or working as watch dog - is it an agressive dog? Is dominant dog an agressive dog?

Did I write these??? Show me where!!!

But activity , fearless etc is not equal dominancy....and also not equal with agressivity, such as dominancy is not equal agressivity also.
Moreover as csw is a tipical pack dog, they accept the pack rules.....so the position in the pack is depending on behaviour and the opposit.

And I also don't want to wrote my oppinion about working dogs.........just only one thing : if you work with malinois or gsd you surely don't want to work with csw !!!!

[Morian]

Originally Posted by jasmine

just only one thing : if you work with malinois or gsd you surely don't want to work with csw !!!!

...if you are lazy and look for more simple ways
csv is not limited in its possibilities, but we have to "give" more to get more from csv. it explains all. imho of course i don't work with my wolfdogs (i mean professional level), but i see their abilities
and the most sad thing is that many lazy breeders (lazy to train, lazy to select by temperament - or just saving their money) proclaim this as a norm...

[jasmine]

ok...than write about this, just after you made IPO exam with your dogs
I did...with csw and also with other breed...so I know what I'm talking about !

Edit

[Morian]

i know some dogs which are not controlable, not stable etc. but they have ipo diplomas and we don't speak about concrete dogs, but about our breed. and about very bad trends in breeding and not only...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by jasmine

But activity , fearless etc is not equal dominancy....and also not equal with agressivity, such as dominancy is not equal agressivity also.

The pack behaviour of dogs base on dominancy. Dominancy is connected with agression (or better said with different kinds of agression). Two fighting males are not "agressive dogs" but dogs which behave like...DOGS.
Males growling on other males in the ring are normal. Dog not tolerating dogs from other "packs" are normal too....

Sorry, but I read too many accusations on this forum "because you have an agressive dog"... People with unusual dogs attack people which have dog which show really typical CzW character...
I would not say that 'unusual' dogs have always 'untypical' character - but "the exception proves the rule"...

Originally Posted by jasmine

Moreover as csw is a typical pack dog, they accept the pack rules.....so the position in the pack is depending on behaviour and the opposit.

Yes. I agree. But the pack behaviour apply only to pack members - not to other dogs. Additionally - in many cases people do not keep to the rules what can cause problems. But PEOPLE and not DOGS are responsible in such cases...

Originally Posted by jasmine

And I also don't want to wrote my oppinion about working dogs.........just only one thing : if you work with malinois or gsd you surely don't want to work with csw !!!!

I was working with gsds - I owned them for years. Even now there are many of them on our obedience courses... No - I don't want to train with them. I know their advantages very well - but I will never own any malinois or GSD because they do not have the advantages which CsW have... Malinois are perfect working dogs but CzWs are MUCH MORE inteligent... And it is something which is I value a lot...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

The pack behaviour of dogs base on dominancy. Dominancy is connected with agression (or better said with different kinds of agression). Two fighting males are not "agressive dogs" but dogs which behave like...DOGS.

This is not right as a pack in the biological sense is a family consisting of two parents and their offspring every other group is just a group, not a pack. In a pack Dominance is not automatically connected with aggression.
Two fighting males might be behaving like dogs but this will depent on how the fight started.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Males growling on other males in the ring are normal. Dog not tolerating dogs from other "packs" are normal too....

This is if anything territorial aggression, not dominance but if the owner is not able to control this behaviour in the ring, this might be due to his rank order problems with his dog - though normally this is only bad training and/or owners that like to show of.

As long as every kind of motivation will get mixed up it will not be possible to name the new character problem.
The indifference you described, if I did understand you properly, is something normally caused by lack of self confidence that has been trained of. The dog learned how to manage those situations.
It is different to the lack of interest many adult wolfdogs show to social interaction with strangers if they don´t provide treats or being petted.

Ina

[jefta]

Originally Posted by jasmine

There are several exams

Yes->obedience, defence, police work, tracking, rescue, agillty, coursing, pulling, dog dancing, frisbee,... but where are csv in them? Few in basic classes?


Ones more. What type of working dog is csv?

[martiou07]

does that exist a calm wolfdog??

the only ones that I saw which is really " calm" , to see too calm are dogs which after information are dogs under treatment....

I am not expert, far from, however, of what I see at home and of the various dogs that I could see, on their premises, in their element, are of the dogs of dominant nature, and I must acknowledge that is this difficult character which me also attract in the race ...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Why you list dominance as minus? Typical CsW males are pretty dominant - just take a look on any champion class on any bigger club show... It is (almost everytime) full a DOMINANT, self-confident males...

Sorry but the term "dominance" is very often (and also here) used in a totally wrong way. Dominance in the ethological point of view is not about self confidence but simply about the rank order in the pack. It is not a part of a character itself but only a term for a kind of social interactions.
A socially very expansive male that will show this behavior not only against dogs but also against humans is nothing desirable as a pet in our modern times. A self confident dog is something desirable because it will stay calmer in socially stressfull situations, being not in need to proof itself at any time. So a calm dog might be very self confident if it doesn´t see a need to get exited. That doesn´t tell anything about it´s trainability.

Ina

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

A socially very expansive male that will show this behavior not only against dogs but also against humans is nothing desirable as a pet in our modern times. A self confident dog is something desirable because it will stay calmer in socially stressfull situations, being not in need to proof itself at any time. So a calm dog might be very self confident if it doesn´t see a need to get exited. That doesn´t tell anything about it´s trainability.
Ina

What you described as a "top of dominance" is not typical for dogs with really strong characters but exactly for weaker individuals.
Expansive dogs which are also "sure" about their strengt are much harder to provoke. Sure, if they decide that somebody crossed the line the reaction will be hard.

The top of the pack is always a calmer individual. Self-confident dog which do not need to attack other pack members. Exactly the "second" dog tend to be more agressive: weaker animals which are affraid to "loose" what they "own" tend to be more agressive...

Dogs are not much different than people - they accept voluntarily charismatic leaders. Calm but self confident. Agressive tyrants have small chances to be accepted (and it makes them more and more angry).

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

What you described as a "top of dominance" is not typical for dogs with really strong characters but exactly for weaker individuals.
Expansive dogs which are also "sure" about their strengt are much harder to provoke. Sure, if they decide that somebody crossed the line the reaction will be hard.
.

This is not what I ment with social expansive. We bred all our dogs with less desire to be the head of the pack than an average adult wolf will show. It is what Zimen and Lorenz called "Verkindlichung". In social behaviour against humans dogs don´t get fully mature. And they also show less drive in fighting for privileges and rank position. Though there are dogs with more drive than others and with higher conflict-potential than others with their human family. Irish Wolfhounds for example normally aren´t very interested in rank orders anyway, they have one but "so what", they don´t care very much.

[z Peronówki]

One important addition:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

A socially very expansive male that will show this behavior not only against dogs but also against humans is nothing desirable as a pet in our modern times.

What you described (dogs which "love" to show their "dominanca") I personally call a "Wolfdog with character of Caucasian Ovtcharka". I would describe them not as problematic but simply as not typical.....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

One important addition:



What you described (dogs which "love" to show their "dominanca") I personally call a "Wolfdog with character of Caucasian Ovtcharka". I would describe them not as problematic but simply as not typical.....

Well, I also don´t find them problematic but most people do. And if handled the wrong way they are very problematic.

Ina

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Well, I also don´t find them problematic but most people do. And if handled the wrong way they are very problematic.

Ina

if typical wolfdog is problem- buy a labrador - york - poodle or others breed. Wolfdog NOT mas be easy and calm and nice doggy from alls people

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by wolfin

if typical wolfdog is problem- buy a labrador - york - poodle or others breed. Wolfdog NOT mas be easy and calm and nice doggy from alls people

But I think we both agree, that a life stock guarding dog like an Owtscharka is bred for totally different work than a wolfdog and therefor needs very different skills for work in itself. And in times of dangerous dog lists one should maybe think a little bit about the different circumstances in life. They simply don´t live in the border corridor any longer to prevent people to leave the country. But live in the middle of everything and live with their families.
Apart from that I start to think the problem here is a language one.
And still I don´t know what is untypical about this one dog.

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

But I think we both agree, that a life stock guarding dog like an Owtscharka is bred for totally different work than a wolfdog and therefor needs very different skills for work in itself. And in times of dangerous dog lists one should maybe think a little bit about the different circumstances in life. They simply don´t live in the border corridor any longer to prevent people to leave the country. But live in the middle of everything and live with their families.
Apart from that I start to think the problem here is a language one.
And still I don´t know what is untypical about this one dog.

Atypical, because he is a nice,kind, handable dog. Everybody could touch him, didn't show agressivity and even could be together with other males.
In Nitra we could be together with the same "pack" with Gisu, Gandalf and Emir, 3 adult males without any problem. They don't want to kill each other. For me it doesn't mean that they are atypical csw's but mean they are clear minded, stabil , well socialized dogs with good caracter .
And this kind of caracter is not the opposit what is written in the standard , and I couldn't see the connection this behaviour and working ability.
I realy don't think that the agressiv, dominant dogs would be wished nowadays.


Edit

[elf]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

CzWs are MUCH MORE inteligent...

It's interesting as not necessarily true and often (always) told by CSV people, the word 'intelligent' is so problematic, you may know the wolves -as I guess we would all qualify as so 'intelligent'- are performing less better than dogs to many tests, problem of 'fitting' in an environment, and regarding this point I'm sure the CSV would not overcome. Sure each tests is 'oriented', but anyway interesting enough to keep in mind.