Typical temperament of CsWs

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Margo

One more question: if you believe in your words why did you use Juri,

Sorry again, as I know Juri very well and you obviously find his character within the standard, he is not dominant, he is selfconfident and showing body signals of dominance in special situation towards other dogs.

And after a little bit of training and keeping rules he is absolutely no problem with other dogs but stays calm, does he now no longer fit the standard?
When he meets his mother or grandmother he is showing strong submissive behaviour is he now not within the standard anylonger?

Cäsar that you used for breeding did show no dominant behaviour at all and instead shy behaviour on several occasions, did you breed with a non-standard dog? Or did you get to know these dogs well enough to know that their behaviour was due to special situations?

And still, what is the problem with the special dog the discussion started about? How well do you know him?

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry again, as I know Juri very well and you obviously find his character within the standard, he is not dominant, he is selfconfident and showing body signals of dominance in special situation towards other dogs.

And after a little bit of training and keeping rules he is absolutely no problem with other dogs but stays calm, does he now no longer fit the standard?
When he meets his mother or grandmother he is showing strong submissive behaviour is he now not within the standard anylonger?

Cäsar that you used for breeding did show no dominant behaviour at all and instead shy behaviour on several occasions, did you breed with a non-standard dog? Or did you get to know these dogs well enough to know that their behaviour was due to special situations?

And still, what is the problem with the special dog the discussion started about? How well do you know him?

Ina,

she is Margo.......she knows everything, every dogs and of course she has always the answers.........
For me Juri is a good caractered dog, not extra dominant and absolutly handable........Casar..hmmm..I don't want to write my oppinion about his caracter here...only one, he is everything but not selfconfident.
Borko....hehehe..we travelled together several times, he was my friends's dog, so maybe I know him more than you, Margo.......

And when a dog is well socialized for me not equal that would have saarloose caracter.............anyway Margo, how many saarloose you have????????

[CDaniela]

I spoke many times with Mr. Hartl about the beginnings of a cross breed of the dog's natures. Crossing the wolf and the dog is not easy ... involvement could not be submissive dogs. Wolf- female needed a dominant dog. I think that this - the original genes are present in nature csv, still clearly visible. Working with this dog is complicated .... like to get involved in their breeding dogs quiet and easy to use. But my heart belongs to a dominant dog

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by jasmine

For me Juri is a good caractered dog, not extra dominant and absolutly handable........

I agree with your words. But you must also agree that he is not a dog which will hug other males. And he is also not a dog who on dog show is looking hollow in the air or counting butterlies flying outside the window.

Originally Posted by jasmine

Casar..hmmm..I don't want to write my oppinion about his caracter here...only one, he is everything but not selfconfident...

Hmmm...if Casar is not selfconfident than how you will can your dogs?

Originally Posted by jasmine

Borko....hehehe..we travelled together several times, he was my friends's dog, so maybe I know him more than you, Margo.......

Yes, yes. He was sweet dog playing with cats and chickens, kissing other males, of course he was never growling. He was also inviting all people to his house... And slow and lazy like pekinesse....

But oppps - we are talking about Borko Kollarov dvor... right?

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by Margo

I agree with your words. But you must also agree that he is not a dog which will hug other males. And he is also not a dog who on dog show is looking hollow in the air or counting butterlies flying outside the window.



Hmmm...if Casar is not selfconfident than how you will can your dogs?



Yes, yes. He was sweet dog playing with cats and chickens, kissing other males, of course he was never growling. He was also inviting all people to his house... And slow and lazy like pekinesse....

But oppps - we are talking about Borko Kollarov dvor... right?

???????? Have you seen Gisu to give kissess to other males? Or did I wrote that Gisu,Gandalf and Emir kissess each other??????????????????????
I wrote they didn't want to kill each other...I think it is not the same things !
Slow and lazy like an old pekingese????? ohhhhh so where were the eyes' of the judges when put him in the firts place several times...several times!!!!

And please don't write about Casar to us: many of us know him very well !!!!!!

[Morian]

Originally Posted by jasmine

???????? Have you seen Gisu to give kissess to other males? Or did I wrote that Gisu,Gandalf and Emir kissess each other??????????????????????

o-o
my male usually does it... and never starts to fight first (or only in some cases when he must protect me or other "pack" members), but he is surely able to (it's checked ). does it mean that i own a pekinesse? and what is dominancy? desire to kill all moving around? somebody is wrong now...

[jasmine]

yes...you are right...something is wrong.....
everybody sing theire own song

for me a well socialized , handable dog could behave in dogshow, could behave among another dogs, people.
And it doesn't mean that this kind of dogs don't fit to the standard!!!!

If you couldn't handle your dog's agressivity/dominancy it means not you are the pack leader.
That's simple.

[Morian]

...it all looks like some people try to turn serious faults into specialities
dog can be dominant, can be calm, can be active etc., but never must be shy or agressive. and this difference exists, sorry. dog must be handable and obidient. maybe some people lazy to train their dogs want to say that their dogs are just typical we all are different too with different temperaments, but we all are normal (i hope ). so there is a difference between individual characteristic and pathology and this is big mistake to mix it.

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by Margo

Yes, yes. He was sweet dog playing with cats and chickens, kissing other males, of course he was never growling. He was also inviting all people to his house... And slow and lazy like pekinesse....

But oppps - we are talking about Borko Kollarov dvor... right?

And ooopsz: beside of Borko were chickens and also cats.....and he was never agressive with foreigners.

[wolfin]

activ and dominant are two diferent things.
Activ dog can be without agresion and passiv dog can be with agresion

like one example from one dog show:
I saw one passive dog in ring with active dog - diferent is very big
both was without animal or people agresion but both was diferent in temperament.

[jasmine]

But Daiva,

as we are different...our dogs could be different
if a dog calm or passive, especial in a show it doesn't mean that his behaviour is not the standard or !!! that he is the same in every other part of the life !!!

Edit

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by jasmine

But Daiva,

as we are different...our dogs could be different
if a dog calm or passive, especial in a show it doesn't mean that his behaviour is not the standard or !!! that he is the same in every other part of the life !!!

Edit

WHAT !!!!! You want say - used people a drugs for dog show- oh this are in FCI disqualification from dogs show. This is cheating ....
aha and this are- in home dogs are this same dominant agresor like others wolfdogs

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by jasmine

And ooopsz: beside of Borko were chickens and also cats.....and he was never agressive with foreigners.

I will not list the stories... I can say only one: Borko was a very typical male with very typical CzW behaviour...

Far away from being a pug....

[jasmine]

[quote=Margo;339866] I will not list the stories... I can say only one: Borko was a very typical male with very typical CzW behaviour...


I have never told the opposit...........

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Far away from being a pug....

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

And slow and lazy like pekinesse

As Margo keeps insulting other breeds I want to say something from my little experiences...
I was allways a little worried about Brukne's behavior - she never shows any agressiveness towards people (unless they are agressive towards me, not her ), but she is really not too good with other females (except her sister Walmaj and Callisto z Peronowki ) and young males I used to think, that I've mist something in her education... BUT. When I started to create a TV show about dogs, I had a possibility to spend time with breeders of various breeds every week. Known breeders in Lithuania and other countries. Experienced ones. Believe me, that was a release! Pekinesses were trying to kiss me (10 of them at once), but after 5 minuts two males were trying to kill each other!!! Breeder had to make a good work to tear them apart! Chihuahua males - just the same! Breeder of Great Danes said "I can take a male and one of the females - females can not be kept together in one car or outside!) White swiss shepherds - females live apart from each other in one home My friend, breeding German shepherds, said "oh my female just bite my face" as this is a totally normal thing And many other examples

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

As Margo keeps insulting other breeds

Take is as: or or

I love also other breeds. I LOVE pugs - I have always a lot of fun with them... I like them since one of them terrorized Bolton - I never met such "insolent" young lady... I love GSD - I had them for years and they still own part of my heart. I love malinois - if I would not have CzW I would own one of them... I like pekinese - I owned a peke-mix many years ago. HE was a dominant dog - more dominant than caucasian ovtscharka owned by my friends...
There are many really great breeds.... But there is always something what gives the reason to "insult" them.... (even if it works in both sides )

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I was allways a little worried about Brukne's behavior - she never shows any agressiveness towards people (unless they are agressive towards me, not her ), but she is really not too good with other females (except her sister Walmaj and Callisto z Peronowki ) and young males I used to think, that I've mist something in her education... BUT. When I started to create a TV show about dogs, I had a possibility to spend time with breeders of various breeds every week. Known breeders in Lithuania and other countries. Experienced ones. Believe me, that was a release! Pekinesses were trying to kiss me (10 of them at once), but after 5 minuts two males were trying to kill each other!!! Breeder had to make a good work to tear them apart! Chihuahua males - just the same! Breeder of Great Danes said "I can take a male and one of the females - females can not be kept together in one car or outside!) White swiss shepherds - females live apart from each other in one home My friend, breeding German shepherds, said "oh my female just bite my face" as this is a totally normal thing And many other examples

Exactly!! Not a long time ago there was a pretty famous case of two yorkshire females which killed a miniature poodle female...

But it is nothing - now the "top" breeds in PL are yorkshire terriers... You really can not imagine how many people come to our kennel club asking for advice because the yorks are terrorizing their families: bitting children, guests or attacking other dogs... The most agressive dogs which I meet on dog shows are... labradors... It is much more "dangerous" by their ring than by amstaffs...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry again, as I know Juri very well and you obviously find his character within the standard, he is not dominant, he is selfconfident and showing body signals of dominance in special situation towards other dogs.

Why for you a NORMAL dog is something wrong?!?!? Please READ IT ONE MORE TIME!!!

Margo: One more question: if you believe in your words why did you use Carr, Juri, Geri? All of them are "dominant" dogs (I personally call them "normal").
According to this what Edith wrote - a normal dog (for her) is dog which behaves like CASTRATE. Or Saarloos....
Juri, Carr and Geri are not like this. They are NORMAL dogs according the breed standard for CzW and according the norms given for normal dogs. But because of it they DO NOT FIT to Edith's expectations!

Sorry, but what you can not change is the reality. Everybody knows Juri or Carr and everybody knows Gisotsu or Yam, and they are TOTALLY different dogs.

And after a little bit of training and keeping rules he is absolutely no problem with other dogs but stays calm, does he now no longer fit the standard?
When he meets his mother or grandmother he is showing strong submissive behaviour is he now not within the standard anylonger?

Sorry, but I do not understand your problem... I know Juri good enough. I like his character very much and he is typical male with stable character. Very friendly one. Like his father.
Why is it wrong according to you? Is is wrong that he do not act like dummy with low batteries?

Cäsar that you used for breeding did show no dominant behaviour at all and instead shy behaviour on several occasions, did you breed with a non-standard dog? Or did you get to know these dogs well enough to know that their behaviour was due to special situations?

Yes, I saw him may times. Also in private. I know that Jorg had no time to socialize him and it is sometimes still visible. But I also know his real character - really nice animal. And thanks to his active, friendly but still typical CzW characters his puppies won a lot of popularity, and many, many dog shows... They are really easy to handle.

But you know - what I really dont like are the ettiquetes put on dogs without any reason... I remember the time when people called Grey Wolf a extremly agressive dog - ONLY because he was trained as watch dog (he was working as security dog). And what? His offsprings have great characters (look Farouk). Many called Carr and "agressive" dog because since he has female at home he started to be dominant against some males. And what? He is father of dogs which have one of the best characters by CzW. The same is with being shy - what is SHY dog? Shy dog is a dog which had GOOD socialization but still he is trying to escape. Believe me - you can have a Wolfdog with the most perfect character but iof you not not socilize it it will become "shy". Even is the genes are simply perfect....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Obviouly I cannot make myself understandable.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Why for you a NORMAL dog is something wrong?!?!? Please READ IT ONE MORE TIME!!!

Margo: One more question: if you believe in your words why did you use Carr, Juri, Geri? All of them are "dominant" dogs (I personally call them "normal").
According to this what Edith wrote - a normal dog (for her) is dog which behaves like CASTRATE. Or Saarloos....
Juri, Carr and Geri are not like this. They are NORMAL dogs according the breed standard for CzW and according the norms given for normal dogs. But because of it they DO NOT FIT to Edith's expectations!

scientifically seen the term dominant is wrongly used at this place. As it was used to differ calm behaviour from the ideal character and to explain what is wrong of one special dog I tried and still try to varify.
To be honest I think the problems here occure because we are all talking here in a foreign language.
Obviously these dogs did fit Edits expectations like they did fit yours or both of you wouldn´t have used them.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Sorry, but what you can not change is the reality. Everybody knows Juri or Carr and everybody knows Gisotsu or Yam, and they are TOTALLY different dogs.

That is my problem and the reason why I asked several times: I DON`T know both dogs, at least not in a way that I could judge them according to their behaviour.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Sorry, but I do not understand your problem... I know Juri good enough. I like his character very much and he is typical male with stable character. Very friendly one. Like his father.
Why is it wrong according to you? Is is wrong that he do not act like dummy with low batteries?



Yes, I saw him may times. Also in private. I know that Jorg had no time to socialize him and it is sometimes still visible. But I also know his real character - really nice animal. And thanks to his active, friendly but still typical CzW characters his puppies won a lot of popularity, and many, many dog shows... They are really easy to handle.

I was ironic I don´t have a problem with both dogs, especially not with Juri.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

But you know - what I really dont like are the ettiquetes put on dogs without any reason... I remember the time when people called Grey Wolf a extremly agressive dog - ONLY because he was trained as watch dog (he was working as security dog). And what? His offsprings have great characters (look Farouk). Many called Carr and "agressive" dog because since he has female at home he started to be dominant against some males. And what? He is father of dogs which have one of the best characters by CzW. The same is with being shy - what is SHY dog? Shy dog is a dog which had GOOD socialization but still he is trying to escape. Believe me - you can have a Wolfdog with the most perfect character but iof you not not socilize it it will become "shy". Even is the genes are simply perfect....

Well, that is a general problem, many people talk a lot about many dogs but only very few can really judge behaviour, that again is why I asked and still got no answer.
We have close contact not only to Juri but to several dogs out of this litter all have an extremly good charakter but there are people that should have known better that called them hyperaktiv - the new fashionable term, used on every dog behaving just normal for a typical CSW. Giving clear signals they behave very well and - sorry - very calm on leash and perfectly normal according to the standard.

So if somebody tells me about horrible charakters of dogs I ask till I know why they think it is horrible and mostly my opinion is different.

[elf]

Reading quick through posts it seems you all, breeders, make a strong link between a dog character and the way to breed it, like if character transmission was strong as suggested in J. Jedlička paper, but from the paper "The genetic contribution to canine personality" this is really not the case: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...5&postcount=47