Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

OK, I am reading now the original papewr on the TYRP1 mutations causing bb phenotype, so more to come, but from what I understood untill now, they are loss-of-function kind of mutations, which actually can occur de novo, and with Fallko Kollarov dvor being common ancestor of both Thalia and Sibir, if he gained a new loss-of-function mutation of TYRP1, then it could show exactly like it happened here. Which doesn't mean it cannot be due to inmixing of Saarloos, but, if we are lucky, it can be looked into, by finding out what allele is present in the red pups, and compare it to allelle present in forrest/brown Saarloos wolfdogs.

Anyway, off to look at the paper (have access here at work).

An interesting part in the paper, the fact that the authors did not consider for "Grackle" case a de novo mutation possibility could show their thinking about the time scale of those kind of mutation is not so short:

"It is not sur-prising that the recessive brown could be maintained in
black dogs for many generations. Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back."

[saschia]

Originally Posted by elf

Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back.

How many generations in CSW? I am not saying it is a de novo mutation, but not taking that possibility into account means we believe, that there was intentional mixing in a well known and established kennel.

Between the creation of the breed and nowadays, there was at least one bottleneck, maybe several, that caused high relatedness in the breed. Such a visible trait, as the red/brown color is, would be noticed before, if it came from GSD, no?

And de novo mutations do occur all the time, we just usually do not see them. Maybe the authors of the paper did not take them into account just because the dog that had the unusual allele, was related to brown animals in just a few generations back. And may it was a mistake not to take possibility of de novo mutation, but it actually was not the scope of the paper to ponder the origins of the mutations, but only their presence and mechanism of their action.

But, the testing for the color allele would say a lot I think, so that's the fastest way to get any answers regarding Thalia and Sibir right now. If they do not find the mutations tested nowadays, that will tell us something. If they find the one that is also present in SAV, that tells us something too. If they find two different mutations, that again tells us a lot.

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

I am not saying it is a de novo mutation, but not taking that possibility into account means we believe, that there was intentional mixing in a well known and established kennel.

But this is not the point, the point is to know if the line is clean or not (blaming X or Y is another topic) and how to proceed for checks. In addition, mixing could occured without the breeder noticed it, when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it.

Furthermore, those red puppies are only one of the "anomalies" we have in the line, I guess you saw some other pics Margo put. With the huge number of offsprings of this line, the impact in the breed as a whole is really important and should be investigated as best as possible the sooner possible.

[saschia]

elf, I agree with you, the color is only one of the problem, but it is the one that can be cleared up relatively easily. If there was mixing, to produce red puppies, at least two mixings (with at least 1 SW) would have to occur. So once is a possibility of accident, but twice... I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers...

[Silvester]

Originally posted by elf :
"In addition, mixing could occured without the breeder noticed it, when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it."

Hmmm....interesting...!

Originally posted by saschia :
"I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers..."

Yeah, you are right - such breeder SHOULD BE able to do so, no question!

[Hanka]

Hello friends. Is here somebody who has children of pair Moňa z Krotkovskeho dvora + Fallko Kollarov dvor? Or maybe we need pups from Moňa separatelly and Falko´s pups separatelly too.We will be happy about their DNA for help to explain what hapenned in Lorry´s kennel. Thank you.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello friends. Is here somebody who has children of pair Moňa z Krotkovskeho dvora + Fallko Kollarov dvor? Or maybe we need pups from Moňa separatelly and Falko´s pups separatelly too.We will be happy about their DNA for help to explain what hapenned in Lorry´s kennel. Thank you.

Scientifically, there may be a reliable, to make comparative DNA with the genetic map of personal Crying Wolf Thalia (daughter of Mona and Falko) ??

If so, I thank in advance all those who have taken the step to want to help me understand

Merci Hanka de tous les efforts que vous faites et de votre soutien ...

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello friends. Is here somebody who has children of pair Moňa z Krotkovskeho dvora + Fallko Kollarov dvor? Or maybe we need pups from Moňa separatelly and Falko´s pups separatelly too.We will be happy about their DNA for help to explain what hapenned in Lorry´s kennel. Thank you.

Hanka, remember my mail recently sent .....
Is it possible that Daniela comes into contact with the person who agrees to conduct such tests with his dog (she is a veterinarian, so no problem for it to make itself the levy in the rules)
In terms of lineage, it is a half brother Galiba (1/2 frères de Galiba) (with Falko in father) so very interesting for a reliable result

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by saschia

elf, I agree with you, the color is only one of the problem, but it is the one that can be cleared up relatively easily. If there was mixing, to produce red puppies, at least two mixings (with at least 1 SW) would have to occur. So once is a possibility of accident, but twice... I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers...

Was there a spesific reason to conclude that there must be more than one mixing taken place?

I'm just wondering, because this does not necessarely have to be the case.

If there is any inbreeding (like in this case there is), then it does not need more than one individual to introduce a new trait (recessive gene) into the lineage/breed. Because due to inbreeding, this one individual may end up appearing in both parent's sides in the pedigree. -And in such situation, the chances are that some day in some certain pairing the recessive gene gets doubled, and so it appears in the phenotype of some offspring.

Of course there CAN be more than one "oopsie daisy" (a mix up by accident or on purpose) taken place.
But I just wanted to point out, that if suddenly some weird looking puppies of homozygous recessive genotype (like in this case bb / brown coloured) occurs, it may very well be a result of only one "oopsie daisy" that is just doubled in the pedigree (comes from both parent's sides).

Recessive traits may jump over several generations unnoticed, and it may take time before (due to the chances of random selection of the genes) some day some certain individual will inherit two copies of this recessive gene, that once came from possibly only one certain anchestor who passed it forward over several generations.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

Was there a spesific reason to conclude that there must be more than one mixing taken place?
...
But I just wanted to point out, that if suddenly some weird looking puppies of homozygous recessive genotype (like in this case bb / brown coloured) occurs, it may very well be a result of only one "oopsie daisy" that is just doubled in the pedigree (comes from both parent's sides).

That is true. On the other hand, if you look at pedigree of Thalia, you see that her parents are dogs from pure Slovak lines - I mean Fallko being born 11 years ago and Mona 13 years ago - I just don't believe there could be crossing with Saarloos in Slovakia that long ago, and for sure not by "oopsy-daisy" accident. I would like to believe it would be impossible even today, but of course that is naivity, but 11-13 years ago? When was the first Saarloos visiting Slovakia? When was the first Saarloos imported here? In year 1998, when Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora was born, the Csechoslovak Wolfdog was finally accepted as regular FCI breed. It was a huge success for slovak breeders. I just cannot imagine, why would anyone, at that time, mix with the "competition", even if they would have access.

Recessive gene, that would be shown by puppies of Sibir and Thalia (and nowhere else!) could be introduced by either Fallko, or Mona, because they are the common relatives. Or by mixing, and declaring false parents, but if we do not accept the possibility, that Fallko or Mona were mixes, then the mixing would have had to occur twice at least, once for Thalia and once for Sibir or one of his parents.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by saschia

That is true. On the other hand, if you look at pedigree of Thalia, you see that her parents are dogs from pure Slovak lines - I mean Fallko being born 11 years ago and Mona 13 years ago - I just don't believe there could be crossing with Saarloos in Slovakia that long ago, and for sure not by "oopsy-daisy" accident. I would like to believe it would be impossible even today, but of course that is naivity, but 11-13 years ago? When was the first Saarloos visiting Slovakia? When was the first Saarloos imported here? In year 1998, when Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora was born, the Csechoslovak Wolfdog was finally accepted as regular FCI breed. It was a huge success for slovak breeders. I just cannot imagine, why would anyone, at that time, mix with the "competition", even if they would have access.

Recessive gene, that would be shown by puppies of Sibir and Thalia (and nowhere else!) could be introduced by either Fallko, or Mona, because they are the common relatives. Or by mixing, and declaring false parents, but if we do not accept the possibility, that Fallko or Mona were mixes, then the mixing would have had to occur twice at least, once for Thalia and once for Sibir or one of his parents.

i think antswer are in photo from this kennel - boxes and fences and dogs lives in this boxes. can hapened all whehn female live in this type kennel.

and .. very easy make pedigree for falsh dogs when not mas have DNA testing in puppy but .. genetic not lie - we can see diferent in anatomy not only in color.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by elf

when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it.
.

Attention, initialement je n'ai jamais affirmé que c'était un mâle ! j'ai même indiqué que j'avais cru comprendre que c'était une femelle stérilisée de C. Keiser....
C'est à la suite de la naissance des chiots roux, quand j'ai prévenu M. Capiez Franck, par téléphone par rapport à Volos (entre autre) qu'il m'a affirmé qu'il s'agissait d'un mâle (castré d'après lui)

Attention, first of all I never said it was a male! I even pointed that, for what I could understand, it was a neuthered female of C.Keiser...
It was after the birth of the red pups, when I've warned Mr.capiez Frank by phone about Volos (among others) and he told me it was an male (neuthered)

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Attention, initialement je n'ai jamais affirmé que c'était un mâle ! j'ai même indiqué que j'avais cru comprendre que c'était une femelle stérilisée de C. Keiser....
C'est à la suite de la naissance des chiots roux, quand j'ai prévenu M. Capiez Franck, par téléphone par rapport à Volos (entre autre) qu'il m'a affirmé qu'il s'agissait d'un mâle (castré d'après lui)

Suite .....Après de longues recherches, j'ai retrouvé une photo où on apperçoit le chien (ou la chienne ?) en question en arrière plan de Sibir ....(photo datée de mai 2007, date à laquelle j'ai été le chercher)
Je ne parviens pas (comme déjà expliqué dans un précédent post à déterminer si c'est un mâle ou une femelle) mais c'est bien un saarloos roux !


Continuing.. After a long search I've found an photo where appear the dog in question at the background, behind of Sibir. ( the date of the photo is May. 2007).
I cant (as already explained in the previous post, to determine if that's an male or a female) but it's an red Saarloos.

[elf]

I hesitated to put pictures, but lets go:

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by elf

I hesitated to put pictures, but lets go:

knew I was not dreaming and that I had seen red Saarloos, from this breeder, I will not pretend to yesteryear, it is the same as your pictures (or even year) because I simply do not know ....

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by elf

I hesitated to put pictures, but lets go:

I am sorry for the off topic, but I will save these photos and show them to my dog whenever she feels her life with me is difficult....

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Suite .....Après de longues recherches, j'ai retrouvé une photo où on apperçoit le chien (ou la chienne ?) en question en arrière plan de Sibir ....(photo datée de mai 2007, date à laquelle j'ai été le chercher)
Je ne parviens pas (comme déjà expliqué dans un précédent post à déterminer si c'est un mâle ou une femelle) mais c'est bien un saarloos roux !

It's a male, you can see the testicle at the photo you posted.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

It's a male, you can see the testicle at the photo you posted.

Moi je ne vois pas assez nettement des testicules pour affirmer celà........je préfère donc rester prudente....

I cant see quite clearly the testicles in this photo to say this, then I prefer remain cautious.