Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by saschia

Draggar, I think if we cannot trust Sonya, than we can trust nobody, including ourselves.

only one - question - was this female ALL time per shes heat in Sonja house or not? if a little read about ovulation - female in this same heat can mate with moore males whenh shes ovulation are longer like one day.
but realy reproductor owner all time want a DNA test and have later easy antswer who is who.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

At present, Issar Kollarov dvor really is in Crying Wolf kennel but I am still his owner. Mating Issar x Flash CW (litter Y CW) happened when Issar was still at my place and when I was present there.

I'm not sure where this comment is going - I'm assuming that you're saying the breeding took place at where you are (and not that someone else was claiming to use a stud that was in your posession?) and that you (for the lack of a better phrase) managed the actual mating (you were there, made sure everything went OK, etc..)?

My concern is that Pollux (Yolka's son) exhibits some Saarloos behavior - I've never denied that he's large or rather skittish. We never attributed his size to anything and thought his temeprament was from enviroment and not genetic. Genetics (especially recessive genetics) tend to pop up in grandchildren which is what Pollux would be to the sire in question (Issar).

We have to Yolka children in this country (both from the P litter) and if there is mix in there we'd need to know quickly before they're in the gene pool here in the USA - it would be devastating to the breed if we have to take many dogs out of the breeding pool ~10 years from now because of this. Our gene pool here is already very small and I'm sure people can understand the concern that I have over this.

Originally Posted by saschia

Draggar, I think if we cannot trust Sonya, than we can trust nobody, including ourselves.

It wasn't a matter of trust, I just missed her post.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

We have to Yolka children in this country (both from the P litter) and if there is mix in there we'd need to know quickly before they're in the gene pool here in the USA - it would be devastating to the breed if we have to take many dogs out of the breeding pool ~10 years from now because of this. Our gene pool here is already very small and I'm sure people can understand the concern that I have over this.

Well, you/your wife are in control of Pollux and I don't know if Partha's owner is planning to breed her. It's pretty controllable at this point.. if in doubt, just don't breed them at all?

[draggar]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Well, you/your wife are in control of Pollux and I don't know if Partha's owner is planning to breed her. It's pretty controllable at this point.. if in doubt, just don't breed them at all?

Technically we're not in complete controll, his "owner" still has full control but I'm sure my wife's opinions and suggestions will carry some weight. It'll be sad if he is a mix, he does have some good qualities (he's goofy in the house, he's very good looking, he does well out on the schutzhund field, I'm sure he'll be a good tracker, etc), he's also starting to be protective of the house, etc.

I'm also trying to make sure I have the right person who owns Partha before I start to talk to them.

[GalomyOak]

While 68 cm is very unusual and certainly I think there are some other untypical features from the Y litter, I guess it's not totally impossible to believe Issar's genetics could have contributed to the height. These dogs, also coming from the lines of Ada Kollorav Dvor, also had unusually (at least to me) tall height:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7446
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/9857
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5187
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1919
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1339

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

These dogs, also coming from the lines of Ada Kollorav Dvor, also had unusually (at least to me) tall height:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7446
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/9857
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5187
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1919
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1339

And one more
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7663

Yes, they seem to be tall, but height in cases, mentioned before, is not the only feature...

[bogdan]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

And one more
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7663

Yes, they seem to be tall, but height in cases, mentioned before, is not the only feature...

She is pretty tall indeed!
But I don't understand what is wrong about the higher height since there is no limitation in the standard regarding the maximum height?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by draggar

Technically we're not in complete controll, his "owner" still has full control but I'm sure my wife's opinions and suggestions will carry some weight. It'll be sad if he is a mix, he does have some good qualities (he's goofy in the house, he's very good looking, he does well out on the schutzhund field, I'm sure he'll be a good tracker, etc), he's also starting to be protective of the house, etc.

I'm also trying to make sure I have the right person who owns Partha before I start to talk to them.

Hello,

I know Yolka and I know several Saarlos-Mixes, she doesn´t look like one and she doesn´t behave like one. I know for sure that Juri mated Yolka and that she was seperated from other males at this time. The behaviour you decribe from Pollux is pretty common in CSW with his history. A history that started with an 38 hours oversea flight and changing place in a sensible period several times. Saarlos by the way are useless in Schutzhund, not really protectiv and I have never seen one track.

Juri is 72 cm of high, Lorenz Farouk Arimminum is 70 cm, and our bitches tend to produce males with the lowest high of 68 cm till now, they are all big.
If you need an DNA-Test I am very sure that Mariana the owner of Juri will make one for you and I am also pretty sure that Edit will let one have done in for example the Vet Clinik in Budapest if you request one.

So I think it is time to calm down a little bit. I have seen some of the questionable dogs of the Louve de la Louve Blanche kennel and also would be more than interested in an OFFICIAL DNA test, I also would think DNA profiles would be a good thing in general, but I personally don´t think Crying wolf has been involved in this. If they are mixes parents have been exchanged in France, not in Hungary. Size is no proof for mixes, a total change of look in sibblings of different litters or nordic wolf faces or changes in colour is.

Regards
Ina

[Juri Z.P.]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Juri is 72 cm of high, Lorenz Farouk Arimminum is 70 cm, and our bitches tend to produce males with the lowest high of 68 cm till know, they are all big.
If you need an DNA-Test I am very sure that Mariana the owner of Juri will make one for you
Ina

Thanks Ina!

I am very disappointed and sad - to read something here. I'll still take a DNA test-TODAY!!!
And all other tests which we need for the future Juris' children. And to support the work from some few peoples in in the different clubs - and to support the healthy development and future of OUR Dogs.
lg Mariana

[elf]

Well I start to feel a bit sorry to run this topic because there are a lot of deviations written here, let me remind the context:

- the french breeder has 3 red puppies born (she was in the past Saarloos breeder so know very well the topic), she asked help from Edit which refuse everything and at a meeting in Italy even pretended not to know the french breeder.

The french breeder has a part of his kennel ruined because cannot trust anymore on the line choosen (she could also play blind, but did not, you know if such symtomatic event cannot be cleared all we will gain is breeders worldwide will be conforted playing blind next time), it is not fair and this thread is the reaction. We all know that high level regulation would solve a lot, I guess we all know that this will never happened anytime soon or even happend one day, so we need to find out what's going on case by case with the little ways we have left.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Juri Z.P.

I am very disappointed and sad - to read something here. I'll still take a DNA test-TODAY!!!
And all other tests which we need for the future Juris' children. And to support the work from some few peoples in in the different clubs - and to support the healthy development and future of OUR Dogs.
lg Mariana

This is a reaction one would expect from an honest breeder/rep owner who cares about "their" pups welfare and the breed in general. Should all have similar attitude there would be no reason to continue useless conversations and unnecessary arguments...

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Juri Z.P.

Thanks Ina!

I am very disappointed and sad - to read something here. I'll still take a DNA test-TODAY!!!
And all other tests which we need for the future Juris' children. And to support the work from some few peoples in in the different clubs - and to support the healthy development and future of OUR Dogs.
lg Mariana

Yes Mariana this is very good detision like reproductors owner. Not worts but DNA test proofe who is who.
and regards to Juri from my

[draggar]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I know Yolka and I know several Saarlos-Mixes, she doesn´t look like one and she doesn´t behave like one. I know for sure that Juri mated Yolka and that she was seperated from other males at this time. The behaviour you decribe from Pollux is pretty common in CSW with his history. A history that started with an 38 hours oversea flight and changing place in a sensible period several times. Saarlos by the way are useless in Schutzhund, not really protectiv and I have never seen one track.

Give me a Saarloos and my club could have him taking bites on a sleeve in 3 months.

We are also working hard to get his true temeprament out, we've seen peeks of the CsV he could be. Yes, his trip here was far from optimal and I'm sure it scarred him.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by draggar

Give me a Saarloos and my club could have him taking bites on a sleeve in 3 months.

Ed, you did absolutly newer meet a Saarloos

This is a Saarloos doing Schutzhund ....

Best regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by wolfin

only one - question - was this female ALL time per shes heat in Sonja house or not? if a little read about ovulation - female in this same heat can mate with moore males whenh shes ovulation are longer like one day.
but realy reproductor owner all time want a DNA test and have later easy antswer who is who.

To be honest I find it rather strange not to trust Sonjas words, I know you know her quite well, we both know that she will not give a statement like this if she wouldn´t be sure.
At this point we maybe should stop and think a little bit about what we are hopping on here. A virtual person has thrown in an idea basing on some photos. looking especially on the photo with the weak Saarlos impression I had to grin, I know one Czech female - of her origin I have no doubt at all - that looks exacly the same, apart from a totally untypical head.

Ina