MISSING credibility of the French pedigrees

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I answer you my personal reason. When this dog will be on bonitation, he will have bonitation code. Maybe good. But me (my person) will be first who will want to see his DNA profil. Maybe, other persons (bonitation comission) will want to see the same. And this dog will have breeding licention after giving of DNA to club. His bonitation cart can be in hand of club and wait result of test.
This case was not in past. So- in this moment- I don´t know what type of DNA test we can use. I am not specialist for it. (like for example SAV mixes have gen for red colour).

I don't know if it is any help, but here is the scheme and program for AKC DNA testing (using a saliva swab, which doesn't need any special preservation to send in mail).
http://www.akc.org/dna/


Tests can be done in several ways:

1. Voluntary owner submission (mandatory if the dog is imported from another country, AI, multiple sires, frequently used sires, etc.)
http://www.akc.org/dna/certify.cfm

2. Compliance audit program (done with/at cost of AKC). These are random kennel checks, which match DNA against pedigrees. There is a system of penalties for kennels that fail compliance, including fines and suspension:
http://www.akc.org/dna/compliance_audit.cfm

3. There is also a system for complaints of individuals or clubs. If someone makes a complaint, they must place a US$500 deposit (a big fee, but not impossible - about 1-2 weeks salary). If the suspicions are true, they get their money back, and the breeder must pay all costs for DNA tests, fines, etc. If they are false, the person making a complaint does not get their money back (to prevent witch hunts).
http://www.akc.org/dna/complaint_policy.cfm

These tests cost $35 per individual dog. Submissions can be made from overseas. These tests do not show purebred/not purebred or any health info - they only make traceable sequences which can be matched to ancestors, relatives and offspring. The AKC will work with clubs to do reduced fee testing for breed shows - $30 per individual dog, I think. Many times, clubs will also offer to pick up part of the bill, to make the cost only $20 for the owner. All tests are submitted to a large, permanent database. If it would be any help, for any breed club, I am happy to see how the AKC can help our breed in Europe - simply send me a PM. But hopefully the FCI or Laboklin offers a similar program?

[Hanka]

Hi Marcy, thanks for info.So exist more possibilities. Here are some DNA laboratory too, so if we will need some this test, we will ask here too. But in this moment it is not (Thanks God) actuel.

[GalomyOak]

No problem, Hanka. I guess, we don't see it (though I am sure it is in some breeds or instances) as a problem - but rather being proactive, so we don't find ourselves in a big mess in the future, if maybe some club rules change, bad officers or judges come in, etc. Meaning - it's easier to have accurate DNA results for the future if we have more DNA results now, especially on older dogs who may not be here if a problem arises, dogs who have many litters, with maybe some puppies that are sold, and get "lost" - with dogs "related to them" (or not) years down the road. People living in the Czech Rep. and Slovakia are lucky - you have very easy access to some of the aging "legends" of our breed (and their offspring), and also some of the tighter breeding controls within your clubs for our beloved breed. You really have an opportunity - not a problem - to grow gold from an ugly seed - to lead our breed in making sure we have integrity and purity for many generations to come. I feel certain other country clubs will follow if someone is willing to lead (unless they have something to hide, I guess) - the US for sure!

[Hanka]

I hope YOU will be leader of US breeding! Or not?

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I hope YOU will be leader of US breeding! Or not?

That's a different topic. But...for my lifetime I hope to influence breeding in the US in every positive way I can. Truth is though...it is the "land of the free". I have no authority to say what dog can breed to what dog, as long as they both have registrations saying they are CSVs from any FCI country (or American born litter). Untypical dogs, mixed dogs with FCI registration, violently aggressive dogs, shy dogs, unhealthy dogs - any with a registration. No questions asked. No parent breed club has been able to change this national rule...AKC wants to make money from every registration it can. AKC even has a rule saying you don't even need the pedigree - only the spoken names of the two parents for an imported dog (to account for native dogs, of say, places like Africa where breed may only be defined by "type" rather than pedigree). After 3 generations, puppies from these breedings receive full registration. Can you imagine how angry you would be if in the future, some AWD breeder in the US, despite our protest, managed to lie and say "Oh, here is a puppy from Ali Reolup and...". And this dog went on to have puppies all bearing precious Ali's name? Maybe even sending puppies back to Europe in the future? It's a dangerous, yet preventable, problem.

Breed clubs do have some influence to ask AKC to close the stud book, hopefully ending this practice, which we will do for sure. But to have DNA to fall back on if a problem did arise would be...priceless.

[Hanka]

Hi hi, Marcy, maybe better is don´t write me about situation in US. I will sleep better.

[GalomyOak]

It's ugly...and scary, for sure.

My point is though...the CSV is an internationally loved breed now, due in a very large part to the hard work in breed perservation, promotion and advancement from the original founding countries. No country, or honest individual wants to be responsible for ruining it. But some things are beyond the control of breed clubs or individuals maybe (I don't know how it is in France, or Italy). The help of DNA - from as many dogs as possible - is very helpful to solve some problems. I wish...we could all work together. With diplomacy.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

AKC wants to make money from every registration it can.

AKC has never done anything to prove that, I mean just look at how ethical this promotion is from a few years ago:



Yes, you reister 10 litters you get the 11th for $1, come on now! They're practically giving away registrations, this proves it's not about the money! Just whelp 10 litters after October 1, 2009 and before the program ended on june 30th, 2010 then you're all set!

.. and tis, a FREE Health Clinic!



AKC and the Hunte Corporation aren't doing this for money either! Hunt openly claims that they spend over $160,000 modifying "trucks and trailers" for dog transportation! He also had a special incinerator engineered for his facility!

It's not about the money!

(note: there is a little bit of sarcasm in this post).

The issue is that the larger they get, the greedier they get. Doesn't FCI reciprocate with AKC so if a dog is AKC registered it can get FCI registered? That's VERY scary. We could have registered our collie as a terveurn - maybe we'll register our cat next.

Its up to the breed clubs to teach the public about the dogs and tresponsible breeding, training, and ownership.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi Marcy, thanks for info.So exist more possibilities. Here are some DNA laboratory too, so if we will need some this test, we will ask here too. But in this moment it is not (Thanks God) actuel.

but he is actuel maybe today not to CZ or LT people but for others dogs. Like I say if dog have mixing in generation back - paternity test not help ( mama x papa).

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

These tests cost $35 per individual dog. Submissions can be made from overseas. These tests do not show purebred/not purebred or any health info - they only make traceable sequences which can be matched to ancestors, relatives and offspring. The AKC will work with clubs to do reduced fee testing for breed shows - $30 per individual dog, I think. Many times, clubs will also offer to pick up part of the bill, to make the cost only $20 for the owner. All tests are submitted to a large, permanent database. If it would be any help, for any breed club, I am happy to see how the AKC can help our breed in Europe - simply send me a PM. But hopefully the FCI or Laboklin offers a similar program?

Je voudrai ête sûre de bien avoir compris le sens réel de votre phrase....
Alors je vais prendre un exemple

Est ce que ce type de test peut définir par exemple que
Rambo et Sibir ont le même père ?
ou que
Rambo et Thalia ont la même mère ?

C'est en tout cas ce que je crois pouvoir comprendre quand je traduits cette phrase :
ils ne font que des séquences de traçabilité qui peut être adaptée aux ancêtres, parents et progéniture

Si c'est bien ainsi qu'il faut comprendre le sens de votre information, je suis prête à avoir recours à ce test supplémentaire....
Pouvez vous me confirmer que j'ai bien compris le sens de votre phrase ?

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Je voudrai ête sûre de bien avoir compris le sens réel de votre phrase....
Alors je vais prendre un exemple

Est ce que ce type de test peut définir par exemple que
Rambo et Sibir ont le même père ?
ou que
Rambo et Thalia ont la même mère ?

C'est en tout cas ce que je crois pouvoir comprendre quand je traduits cette phrase :
ils ne font que des séquences de traçabilité qui peut être adaptée aux ancêtres, parents et progéniture

Si c'est bien ainsi qu'il faut comprendre le sens de votre information, je suis prête à avoir recours à ce test supplémentaire....
Pouvez vous me confirmer que j'ai bien compris le sens de votre phrase ?

"I would like to been sure I have understood the real meaning of your sentence ....
So I'll take an example

Does this type of test can be defined such that
Rambo and Sibir have the same father?
or
Rambo and Thalia have the same mother?

In any case, I think I can understand when I translated this sentence:
they are just sequences of traceability that can be adapted to the ancestors, parents and offspring

If this is the way to understand the meaning of your information, I am ready to make use of this additional test ....
Can you confirm that I understood the meaning of your sentence?"




Je pense que ce serait possible. Dans le cas de Galiba, suis-je raison de voir qu'il est toujours vivant, et vivant en Hongrie? Il aurait aucun problème à envoyer un test génétique pour la Hongrie de l'AKC, si le propriétaire du Galiba serait bien de permettre à l'essai. Avec trois chiens vivant, il doit vraiment y avoir de problème.

Le cas de Mooa, même si elle est morte, serait encore solveable, je crois. Mais, pour être certain à 100%, je vais envoyer un courriel au contact pour le test génétique à l'AKC et poser cette même question.

Mais je pense que la technologie pour tester l'ADN doit être la même en Europe?

Eng:
I think this would be possible. In the case of Galiba, am I correct in seeing that he is still alive, and living in Hungary? It would be no problem to send a genetic test to Hungary from the AKC, if owner of Galiba would be kind to allow the test. With three living dogs, it should really be no problem.

The case of Mooa, even though she is dead, would still be solveable, I believe. But, to be 100% certain, I will email the contact for the genetic test at AKC and ask this same question.

But I think the technology to DNA test must be the same in Europe?

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Je pense que ce serait possible. Dans le cas de Galiba, suis-je raison de voir qu'il est toujours vivant, et vivant en Hongrie? Il aurait aucun problème à envoyer un test génétique pour la Hongrie de l'AKC, si le propriétaire du Galiba serait bien de permettre à l'essai. ?

Justement il y a un problème ....J'ai déjà demandé à ce que Galiba soit testé et ni le propriétaire, ni l'éléveuse n'ont donné suite ....
C'est pour celà (l'unique raison) que je pose la question du test entre Sibir et Rambo qui sont sensés avoir le même père GALIBA (donc le même pôle génétique paternel)
Si des tests génétiques peuvent déjà prouver que Galiba est bien le père de Sibir et de Rambo, on aura déjà fait un grand pas en avant ....

Ou de Thalia et Rambo (qui ont la même mère) or Mona est également la grand mère de Sibir ....
S'il était possible de faire des calculs comparatifs, entre les différentes attèles génétiques ...

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Mais je pense que la technologie pour tester l'ADN doit être la même en Europe??

Non ! et c'est un vrai problème quand on veut faire des test de filiations ....
Par exemple entre l'Italie et la France, les laboratoires ne travaillent pas sur le même nombres de marqueurs génétiques ....
Je suis certaine de ce que j'avance, car les 2 fois où j'ai utilisé un étalon italien, Antagène, n'a pas pu prendre en compte le code génétique du mâle pour valider la filiation ....