Health results (also DM!!) in the Wolfdog.org database

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by Admin

There is a project running on the university in Prague who is checking the DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. All you have to do is to send the blood of your dog (EDTA) OR the swabs with DNA material taken from the inner cheek. Send it together with the information of your dog to:

Daniela Čílová
Katedra genetiky a šlechtění
Česká zemědělská univerzita v Praze
Kamýcká 129
165 21 Praha 6 - Suchdol
Czech Republic

and wait for the results.

Especially thanks to this project there is a HUGE improvement if it comes to the DM testing and the possiblity to make DM selection by our breed.

Is it ok to send an english documentation of the dog - or does it have to be in czech?

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Admin

NO - OFFA publish EVERYTHING on their website. Nothing is hidden. It is the difference between OFFA and other "European" laboratories who ALLOW to hide the results.

No, this isn't totally true. All NORMAL results are published on the OFFA website with or without permission, and it is their recommendation that all results are published to help with knowledge and selection...but owners must still agree to have abnormal results published - they may agree before or after the dog is tested. All dogs are part of the anonymous statistics section for the breed. Our database for PennHip is still dealing with legal privacy issues to be able to become public and published - you must also agree to be part of the database for that registry.

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

If i buy a puppy that i think is n/n by result deduced by result of parents, information published by Wolfdog and after i test my dog and is n/dm, the Lab the laboratory has no responsibility towards me (but Lab have responsibility toward to owner of the parents of puppy).
Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut). Of course you can have different think about rules, but i write one time more than here is not problema about my idea and your idea...is a problem of existing regulations!

[mijke]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

No, this isn't totally true. All NORMAL results are published on the OFFA website with or without permission, and it is their recommendation that all results are published to help with knowledge and selection...but owners must still agree to have abnormal results published - they may agree before or after the dog is tested.

Thanks for clarifying Marcy! I hope more people will realise now that not all results are visible.

European labs would get huge problems when they would publish test results (or share them with others besides the owner) In the past some did, but they did receive complains of breeders, so they did stop with this.

Now it is sometimes only possible for clubs to ask for percentages (without names).
But also this says NOTHING! Because owners make the tests in several labs in Europe and not in the same lab.

It is a pity that it did not work out in the past to cooperate with several countries to start together a DNA database for CsW’s. Now the test results and DNA storage of CsW’s is spread in all kind of labs.

Originally Posted by Admin

There is a project running on the university in Prague who is checking the DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. All you have to do is to send the blood of your dog (EDTA) OR the swabs with DNA material taken from the inner cheek. ….
………. Especially thanks to this project there is a HUGE improvement if it comes to the DM testing and the possiblity to make DM selection by our breed.

Hmmmm…… Are you sure the rules did change????

In the past I did want to cooperate….. (I even did send DNA of a DM/N and a DM/DM dog for their research)
And I also did ask if CsW’s from Holland and Belgium could be tested… (then we would have at least one lab with a lot of CsW DNA)

But in that time I did receive as answer: That this project was only for CSW from the Czech Republic and only a very limited number of dogs of their neighboring countries………

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

If i buy a puppy that i think is n/n by result deduced by result of parents, information published by Wolfdog and after i test my dog and is n/dm, the Lab the laboratory has no responsibility towards me (but Lab have responsibility toward to owner of the parents of puppy).
Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut). Of course you can have different think about rules, but i write one time more than here is not problema about my idea and your idea...is a problem of existing regulations!

You are totally wrong - nobody tells you that the results are OFFICIAL. Nobody cheats you.

YOU as breeder has the whole responsibility. Nobody FORCE you to use a dog with unofficial results. If you do not belive in them JUST DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them. If you want to use dogs ONLY with the ofiicial results - just DO IT. It is only up to you. Some people find the results usefull, some not. We have democration.
It is CLEARLY written that there results are not official and it will be explained that they base on the results of the parents/offsprings.

You write about the responsibility of official laboratories. WHICH ONE? There is the possiblity that due to their mistake there will be some DM/DM puppies born. What will do the laboratory??? Replace the puppies? What will they do in the case when the dogs will get ill? CURE them? There is not cure for DM... Pay you the money? Sorry - money is not important if you have a ill dog which you can not help.

You criticize the unoficial results but in MANY cases they can force puppy owners to test their dogs. They can be informed about the danger EVEN if the dog already died or the breeder is hiding the results.
The unofficial results showed for example that one of the most popular Italian stud dogs - Charon - was DM carrier. For years there were dogs who were put down because of "misterous" reasons. Now the offspring owners know how to prevent it - what they must take into consideration.
The same with Crying Wolf dogs - most of them are DM/DM or DM carriers. Till now only two of them are N/N. The breeder seems not to be interested in any tests. But the puppy owners can do something with it and they can see the problem and prevent that there will be no more dogs born who will suffer like Forrest.

Do you think it is wrong what we do? Should we really help to hide the DM-dogs?

[admin]

Originally Posted by mijke

European labs would get huge problems when they would publish test results (or share them with others besides the owner) In the past some did, but they did receive complains of breeders, so they did stop with this.

Now it is sometimes only possible for clubs to ask for percentages (without names).
But also this says NOTHING! Because owners make the tests in several labs in Europe and not in the same lab.

That's the point - there will be always honest breeders who will publish the results. And there will be always breeders hiding them. There are also CHEATERS who know that their dogs are ill but they tell the puppy owners that their dogs are healthy - the database with unofficial result can prevent it.

Additionally:
Publishing DM information do not "hurt" anyone - even the DM/DM dogs can be used for breeding - only the selection is important: not to mate such dogs with carriers but only with N/N dogs. The same apply to the carriers.

Publishing unofficial information can show possible dangers and can prevent that more DM/DM dogs are born. It is why I do not understand why some people are against it...

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut).

I checked the "responsibility" of the official laboratories - you have written them on the pages which you received with the results:

The lab is accredited according to DIN ISO 17025 (AKS-PL-20922)
for the services mentioned above. Responsibility for the
correctness of animal ID data corresponding with the samples
lies in the hands of the sender. Warranty cannot be accepted.
Claim for damages is limited to the amount of the invoice for
the performed lab test if not otherwise regulated by law.

I think it ends the whole disscussion...

[Shadowlands]

Does any data exist correlating the results from cheek swabs vs blood samples? I have just heard of one case where a dog (not mine) was declared N/DM from a cheek swab, and, later, N/N from a blood sample - both tests performed by Laboklin and both samples taken by an independent vet. Should one type of test be more reliable and believable than the other? I am completely confused...

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

I checked the "responsibility" of the official laboratories - you have written them on the pages which you received with the results:

The lab is accredited according to DIN ISO 17025 (AKS-PL-20922)
for the services mentioned above. Responsibility for the
correctness of animal ID data corresponding with the samples
lies in the hands of the sender. Warranty cannot be accepted.
Claim for damages is limited to the amount of the invoice for
the performed lab test if not otherwise regulated by law.

I think it ends the whole disscussion...

No is not the end. Off course lab don't have responsibility about right identification,i never said this..damage is limited if not otherwise regulated by law..This does not mean it does not respond. You must to seek for rules for accreditation (i spoke aboute this, i think is clear)..research institute don't have accrditation to give official result, and research institute don't respond for error (about test, ID is another think)...why? and you want without any accreditation system recognized deduce part or all genotipe of dogs.

To avoid misunderstandings, I express my appreciation for the work performed by the research institute in Prague that has provided estimates on the incidence considerable allelic gene DM in the population of the CSW.

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

You are totally wrong - nobody tells you that the results are OFFICIAL. Nobody cheats you.

YOU as breeder has the whole responsibility. Nobody FORCE you to use a dog with unofficial results. If you do not belive in them JUST DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them. If you want to use dogs ONLY with the ofiicial results - just DO IT. It is only up to you. Some people find the results usefull, some not. We have democration.
It is CLEARLY written that there results are not official and it will be explained that they base on the results of the parents/offsprings.

You write about the responsibility of official laboratories. WHICH ONE? There is the possiblity that due to their mistake there will be some DM/DM puppies born. What will do the laboratory??? Replace the puppies? What will they do in the case when the dogs will get ill? CURE them? There is not cure for DM... Pay you the money? Sorry - money is not important if you have a ill dog which you can not help.

You criticize the unoficial results but in MANY cases they can force puppy owners to test their dogs. They can be informed about the danger EVEN if the dog already died or the breeder is hiding the results.
The unofficial results showed for example that one of the most popular Italian stud dogs - Charon - was DM carrier. For years there were dogs who were put down because of "misterous" reasons. Now the offspring owners know how to prevent it - what they must take into consideration.
The same with Crying Wolf dogs - most of them are DM/DM or DM carriers. Till now only two of them are N/N. The breeder seems not to be interested in any tests. But the puppy owners can do something with it and they can see the problem and prevent that there will be no more dogs born who will suffer like Forrest.

Do you think it is wrong what we do? Should we really help to hide the DM-dogs?

Yes is wrong to publish data without any title to make this. whether they are related to potential DM or n. There are many dog's with unoficial x rays for dysplasia (good and sick result), we start to publish all?
All think about disease and breeder don't have any sense here. We spoke aboute normal rules to publish genetic result (good and bad, i ask to remove n/n result to my dogs, you remember it?)...

[CDaniela]

Yes, buccal swab is ideal for genetic analysis, it is true. I also prefer working with blood.
I'll write an example that proves that everything is relative ...
Eury z Peronowki was tested in Laboklin. His results-negative. Valkýra z Molu Es tested in Prague (negative) and also in Laboklin - result - negative. Litter B Arqeva (Valkýra x Eury) was tested in Prague - the result - half puppies carrier. Why?
I asked the owner of Eury to repeat the test - the result - the carrier (Laboklin)
Both tests made ​​from the same blood sample.

[hekate]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Yes, buccal swab is ideal for genetic analysis, it is true. I also prefer working with blood.
I'll write an example that proves that everything is relative ...
Eury z Peronowki was tested in Laboklin. His results-negative. Valkýra z Molu Es tested in Prague (negative) and also in Laboklin - result - negative. Litter B Arqeva (Valkýra x Eury) was tested in Prague - the result - half puppies carrier. Why?
I asked the owner of Eury to repeat the test - the result - the carrier (Laboklin)
Both tests made ​​from the same blood sample.

You mean that the results of Laboklin are not trust??

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Admin

There is a project running on the university in Prague who is checking the DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. All you have to do is to send the blood of your dog (EDTA) OR the swabs with DNA material taken from the inner cheek. Send it together with the information of your dog to:

Daniela Čílová
Katedra genetiky a šlechtění
Česká zemědělská univerzita v Praze
Kamýcká 129
165 21 Praha 6 - Suchdol
Czech Republic

and wait for the results.

Especially thanks to this project there is a HUGE improvement if it comes to the DM testing and the possiblity to make DM selection by our breed.

How & who should take the sample? Can I ask my vet to take a sample in Hořovice for example & will the results be considered official?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Baz

How & who should take the sample? Can I ask my vet to take a sample in Hořovice for example & will the results be considered official?

I took my dog to the vet, asked her to check her chip, take the material with a swab, dry it, put into the envelope prepared earlier with my dog's name & chip no & my e-mail, seal it with a stamp and send to Daniela.

Results of the dog's family immediately verify his/her result, so no cheating is possible just like errors are spotted very soon (see the case of Eury). I had similar doubts when the testing started, but the more dogs are tested, the more the results are reliable.

There are people who belive in miracles and many strange things keep happening in their kennels, which BTW they never bother to explain but the rest of the results fit the "family pattern" perfectly.

[Nebulosa]

Then, if there is an dwarf pup in the litter mean both parents might be carrier of the gene, even if they haven't the official results, will it be published?

[CDaniela]

I am not afraid of fraud. Breeders want to know true results of their dogs, they want to work with them. Many breeders only tested for their needs without publication.

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by hekate

You mean that the results of Laboklin are not trust??

Every human activity brings error. This is a normal process.

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by Baz

How & who should take the sample? Can I ask my vet to take a sample in Hořovice for example & will the results be considered official?

Pokud chcete aby byly vaše výsledky považovány za oficiální, musíte poslat vzorek do některé z akreditovaných laboratoří a samozřejmě ho zaplatit. Pokud vám stačí výsledek neoficiální, přijeďte se psem na jeden z podzimních svodů a bonitací v ČR a nechte ho v rámci výzkumu DM odebrat a otestovat zdarma - s neoficiálním výsledkem.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Pokud chcete aby byly vaše výsledky považovány za oficiální, musíte poslat vzorek do některé z akreditovaných laboratoří a samozřejmě ho zaplatit. Pokud vám stačí výsledek neoficiální, přijeďte se psem na jeden z podzimních svodů a bonitací v ČR a nechte ho v rámci výzkumu DM odebrat a otestovat zdarma - s neoficiálním výsledkem.

Díky za informace. Je to dobrý nápad, já jsem za Skotska, takže nechci platit ale chci pomoct, oficiální nebo neoficiální, pro mě to jedno...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Maybe we should continue in Gaelic...