handling of health problems

[saschia]

Ina, people are very irresponsible animals. I mean, there are even human pairs who are both proven carriers for some genetic disease (like cystic fibrosis), even ones that already have sick children and still they do reproduce. They do this to their own children! How can you stop them from doing it to the dogs?

I agree that doing the tests would be the best solution. But two conditions must be fulfilled so that it would be all fair - that most of the dogs are tested, and that the tests are reasonably priced. And such situation is almost impossible, unless it is compulsory... Imagine that I test my bitch and she would be a carrier. If there are not enough tested studs, then I have a problem - do I say openly, that my bitch is a carrier and the pups may be dwarfs - and have problems selling the pups, or do I stay quiet? Or do I stop breeding with my bitch until I find a tested, healthy, non-related male with good hips and exterior compensating my bitch's - which might mean forever? Or do I pay for the test of the selected male and pray for good results? Every one of these possibilities is bad, discriminating and especially hard if I live in Eastern Europe, which means that I have to pay for most things as much as Western Europeans while earning only half (if I am lucky) of their incomes? And selling the pups also for half of western prices, if I don't want to sell all pups out of the country?

[Nebulosa]

Spread gossips...
Before were common people ask about what happened, or what the breeder X or Y have done, its really not problem as questions like that can be explaineable for every good breeder, who read can believe in it or not, this way also help us to know who is doing something for the breed and who not, also as work as warn for some people who only wants breed only looking money, or doing the wrong thing, they can be asure that in the small world of CzW people are looking what you're doing independant of where you live. By one side, its good.

But, its completly different of what for exemple Monika's do here, she comes, spread some gossips which she never was able to proove and so run away without reply any questions. If you show her lies, she comes back, make personal attacks and use the excuse of "i'm judge" or "i'm 20 years breeder" or "I was club member" and so on for try to convince most naive people to believe in her.

I'm talking particulary in this case, because even without mean names, was clear that was about her that we're talking here also.

In internet this kind of person is called troll, and comonly it get banned in the firsts posts, but the main diference of wolfdog.org is that mostly people know each other personaly, have already saw each other in real, if dont, one day probably will see, or will see a dog from this person, that's why I simply had ignored this internet rule for long time, only looking to the extremal cases.

The main problem appeared for sure when this same user had start to try blame owners for have carriers of Dwarf genes and spread gossips about it, to tell you the truth, I entered today for measure what was talked about it in the topic, and probably ban this person because of it.

The first step for end with genetic diseases, is know about them and be able to talk about it freely, without fear of be attacked because you have or had used a descendant of the dog in question without know about the problem, look that its different of repeat the same error even after know it.

I'm pretty used to moderate some foruns, but this one was really diferent for me because of the fact that the users here are not only " users" but people which breed or have a exemplar of this breed, which we know or will know personaly, its change something and that's why I where soo benevolent even with trolls.

So, if it be the will of the users, I can start to follow the common internet rules of "good sense" as they should be used, for moderate this forum, as its done in the majority of the others internet forums.

[Hanka]

Ina, I must correct you a little. Nobody knows and things about dwarfism long time. Thanks to Mijke we started to thing about it.And it is only a few last years.
It is reason, why we can´t search to history of it, because we have not information about dwarf pups for example before year 2000.
For breeders it was "only small puppy" maybe with some health problem.
Much dwarf pups died after born and I think only a few pups survived and we can see them like dwarf puppy.

[loco]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

So, if it be the will of the users, I can start to follow the common internet rules of "good sense" as they should be used, for moderate this forum, as its done in the majority of the others internet forums.

I hope for the future that it stil will be "mine own free will" to judge for myself if something is a fairytale, gossip, a personel attack or the truth .

Groette Martine.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by loco

I hope for the future that it stil will be "mine own free will" to judge if something is a fairytale, gossip, a personel attack or the truth

I also think any kind of "cenzorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Ina, a lack of answer is also an answer.... Paradoxically, a very self-destructive kind of answer!

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Rona

I also think any kind of "cenzorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Its the bad side of more rigorous moderation, for who are ble to judge the informations, these people are also able to know who is right, who is wrong, what is gossips and so on will have the use of the forum for "let masks fall" cutted by half , but for newbies its pretty different, have people who arrives here without have the minimal idea about HD, ED, myelopathy, dwarf and others problems, someone who have no idea about it and read the unfair comment of someone which let clear about "how bad is for breeding have a carrier gen for dwarf in the breeding" and "how unscrupulous a breeder which breed using a carrier dog are" will only be more confuse, will start to seek only free dogs for breeding and find 'bad" that someone used a carrier dog and maybe, depending of the person, will even start to blame breeders who have carrier dogs, for exemple, wrong information can cause much more damaged than the lack of it.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

I also think any kind of "censorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Ina, a lack of answer is also an answer.... Paradoxically, a very self-destructive kind of answer!

Yes you are right but I think you sometimes need to know the whole story that happened before to realize that. And not all people think to the end of a story they heard or can read between lines.
For those who tend to believe what they read and are newbies it is like Nebulosa wrote difficult to find the truth. If the tactic wouldn´t be successful in at least some cases it wouldn´t be used for so many years for so many times and not every breeder would hesitate to write openly about his problem to look for advice.

I don´t care that much about people that are not intelligent enough or care enough to find out what is right or wrong, in my strange opinion CSW are intelligent dogs that need very clever owners to be handled properly.
But is it really in favor of the breed when we let lies get so much influence? It is much more difficult to get everything on a better way than to start right. If we look at the situation in some countries we can see how many non standard dogs and maybe also not healthy dogs this produces.
And if we look in some of these countries on the experts that gave their advice we will find the same people again that we find here telling their weird stories and giving no answers..

[loco]

Rookie or Big Expert ???????, it is still to mine own person to judge what is right or wrong .
And that is the same with everything, that make's us the persons that we are .
And if I ever listend to the people who are "the Big and Famous Expert", sorry then I never owned a CSW .
And surtern not from Warsaw.
And i'm very glad that i did not listend to the big and famous expert , because i am very happy with mine doggie .
A Eternal Rookie .

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by loco

Rookie or Big Expert ???????, it is still to mine own person to judge what is right or wrong .
And that is the same with everything, that make's us the persons that we are .
And if I ever listend to the people who are "the Big and Famous Expert", sorry then I never owned a CSW .
And surtern not from Warsaw.
And i'm very glad that i did not listend to the big and famous expert , because i am very happy with mine doggie .
A Eternal Rookie .

I agree. If we would believe to all this what so called "experts" are saying we would believe in MANY lies...

I heard SO MANY lies about different dogs and different breeders which turned out to be just lies and gossips that I preffer to make my own opinion basing on facts and not what one of two people are saying....

I think what really counts is just the common sence. And instead of spreading the "only truth" is it better to publish FACTS so everybody can judge what is the true and what not...

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Yes you are right but I think you sometimes need to know the whole story that happened before to realize that. And not all people think to the end of a story they heard or can read between lines.
For those who tend to believe what they read and are newbies it is like Nebulosa wrote difficult to find the truth. If the tactic wouldn´t be successful in at least some cases it wouldn´t be used for so many years for so many times and not every breeder would hesitate to write openly about his problem to look for advice.

I take your point Ina, but on the other hand one cannot shut the gossipers’ mouths and they’ll continue spreading their rumours /lies privately or on some other platforms, where there is no possibility to confront them and present true views and facts. Not to mention, that if banned or heavily moderated, they will keep victimizing themselves, and using this fact as an argument for their cases.

Last summer I met a man who asked me which kennel Lorelei came from. Since he looked a bit weird, (the type I call little macho willing to walk with a big wolf ) I gave him a name of a nonexiting kennel . We started talking about CSVs and he told me he had already conducted research for buying a CSV and one of the breeders from central Poland, the top expert in CSVs (sic!) briefed him about the CSV market in Poland. You wouldn’t believe what nonsense I heard about Margo’s kennel, about Galicyjski Wilk and a couple of others!!! By eliminating the “bad” kennels and adding 2 + 2 I could guess with great probability who the source of his “info” was, but since he didn’t mention the name directly, I won’t spread gossip.
Even if half of what he said was true, I should have already been sued by Margo for not taking Lorka often enough to dog shows , my dog should be half her size, have very poor HD and ED and would never be able to play unleashed with other dogs or peacefully walk in busy streets, all of which she often does. .

I am sure this man was not the only indoctrinated one! Such cases have happened, happen and will happen in every country, and I think it’s better to be able to address the gossipers: ask for evidence, details, names, etc. If they cannot display them, and in return only call their opponents names or do not answer the questions, they only discredit themselves. If they do answer, the situation isn't much better. Recent example? Even open, unprejudiced person, who tries to see arguments of all sides, finds it hard to understand how a breed expert may so easily blame breeder(s?) for not testing their dogs for dwarfism, if she herself hasn’t tested hers yet (only intends to ...) .

So maybe a moderate moderation would be a solution? Giving warnings to forum members who use offensive terms like liar, bonsai breeder, etc. or who use deplorable expressions like some of our little machos with big wolves sometimes do?
I don’t mean or mind hot discussions or strong argumentation, but if somebody cannot control himself to the point of throwing mud at others, he should be warned a couple of times and only then - banned.
On th other hand, the moderator or admin should tell forum members very openly and precisely what this person was banned for, so there is no room for victimization and self-victimization.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

So maybe a moderate moderation would be a solution? Giving warnings to forum members who use offensive terms like liar, bonsai breeder, etc. or who use deplorable expressions like some of our little machos with big wolves sometimes do?
I don’t mean or mind hot discussions or strong argumentation, but if somebody cannot control himself to the point of throwing mud at others, he should be warned a couple of times and only then - banned.
On th other hand, the moderator or admin should tell forum members very openly and precisely what this person was banned for, so there is no room for victimization and self-victimization.

I think this is a very good solution, together with a new forum for breeders. Would it be possible to open such a kind of forum here?

@Nebulosa: I will try to reach a friend of mine of the DOK and ask if they are willing to help you with datas. You also could contact the VDH who gets a double of the evaluation form. I never heard of PRA in this amount in Germany, it would maybe also help to find out if it is spread in all lines like the dwarf genes or if it is only in few lines. As far as I do know we don´t have those lines of the test in Germany, at least not that spreaded, actually I don´t know one. But as we have to do eye tests with every breeding dog every year and the DOK, the VDH and the breeders get a copy of every test it should be possible to get the datas of every breeding dog in Germany. My problem is we don´t have an official club here so I don´t know if I can get the datas directly.

Another question: According to what I was able to read on the Polish forum there have been paternitiy tests done on Saarloos in the Netherlands, that showed that Chrop was bred into some of them, have they been done also on CSW the other way round?

Ina