DM is more spread in the breed then we thought!

[mijke]

Hi Massimo,

Thanks for your support in this subject!
And I am glad that also Italian CsW owners did contact me in private to get more information about DM

And I'll do my best to publish as soon as possible a "you tube" (without dog names!) of CsW's with physical DM problems.

But everybody also has to realize there is no reason for total "blind panic"!!
DM is an "old (genetic) disease" and also appears in "no breed" dogs.
Even not all by test proven "Affected dogs" seems to get all the physical problems. So also other factors seems to have influence in appearing physical DM problems (the same like with HD)

On this moment it would not be clever to make specific breeding rules based on the relative few CsW test DM test results !

But for the future of the breed it is necessary to test as much CsW's as possible, to see how this genetic disease is spread.

And of course in the meantime a lot of more research about DM is still needed!

PS
By the way, this all is the same for other genetic diseases like for example dwarfism! A lot of owners and breeders still deny this is a problem in the breed. And they are telling they did never see or hear about a CsW dwarf.
But in the meantime I have contact with several common CsW dwarf owners from different countries and from different lines..... But the most of them don't want to speak about this in public, because they don't want to harm the breeder....
The same I can tell about owners of CsW's with epilepsy, cancer, EPI and... Since I did start the wolfdog-healthinfo site, it is just like I did open "the box of Pandorra"!

So please don't believe any longer `the fairy tails` that CsW´s are the "most healthy breed" of the world!
Also in our beloved CsW breed, are just like in all other dog breeds : GENETIC HEALTH PROBLEMS!
And when we close our eyes and ignore all these problems (because of any reason you can think of), .....
About 50 years our breed will (just like many more breeds )not exist any longer!

So please be realistic, open your eyes and cooperate with research and testing of your dogs to save this wonderful breed for the future!

[Rona]

Mijke, I have one concern. I agree that breeders or people who have reps. should test as many of their dogs as possible. But what about those, who don't intend to use their dogs in breeding?

I'm not speaking about HD/ED or even PRA. These tests are easily available, not so expensive and in case of poor HD results the owners could take steps to offer their dogs extra protection (supplements etc.)

But the situation is different in case of expensive DNA tests! If the owners who are not interested in breeding decide to test their dog/s they would do it entirely for scientific reasons.

Wouldn't it make more sense to spend the money on helping dogs that have already been affected by the diseases than on testing dogs that will not pass their genes anyway!

[hanninadina]

Mijke, you are writing that a lot of people got in contact to you and told you that their dogs have healthy problems either. You wrote that they do not want to blame their breeder. Right?

Do you remember that you have been in germany in may to the speciality with your dwarf 6 month old csw? Afterwards we had some pn contact. People over there told me that that dwarf pup is from Ondraj. I did not know that it is your pup. When we were in contact, I did ask you, if it is true what I heard? I got til today no answer. If I look at Ondrajs litter, it has the same age like your puppy. But your name and dog is missing.... So if you really want to help the people and of course the breed csw, you can start and name the breeder where your ill puppy is coming from.

Other thing, it makes no sense if people make genetic test, if they do not want to breed because they can not change the history. Only the people who want to breed in future they are forced to do test.

But even so, the possibilities in genetic research develops very fast in the last years. No one will be able to breed truely healthy dogs. Sure it should be the aim. But the character of the dogs is important too. And if you compare dogs with people, you will not find lots of people who are healthy their whole life! What I mean is, that is nature! Only the strong survive! You can not manage everything. It would be a good thing if people start to be honest and breeders would not breed with ill dogs, like your breeder did. Maybe he did not know till his litter came. But now he has to stop breeding his bitch. And of course it must be stopped to do so much inbreeding.

I remember a few month ago everybody was saying, we do not need to breed in fresh wolfblood. So as I see it, it would help, but onyl from healthy wolves, becauses even in the wolfpopulation there are lots of problems because they came out of Zoos and Wildparks and were inbred!

So in the end, nature takes his toll. The minimum is that breeders stop to look for "old bloodlines". It makes no sense only to breed for "old lines" if they are not healthy.

Mijke you are really true, csw is same dog breed like every dog breed and is so ill or not like any other dog breed. To call them a healthy breed is for sure not true. They are average. Enjoy your live with your dogs and stop inbreeding. If they get ill than go to the vet. Like people do if they get ill.

Christian

[jasmine]

As we are just breeders and not the God , of course problems could appear. The question is always that how could we handle the problems.

DM is exist . But it is quite complex problem, as that kind of physical ruination could be caused many many other things , especial old age. There are many illnes with almost the same symphtoms.
We still do not know too many things about DM , still are many open questions.
So I think we have to make DM test...but we have to handle the result in "right place". These test will have spell some years later , when more % of the population will be checked and we could see the problematic lines and the inheritance of the bad gene (which is real cause problem).

[jeannie]

Rona,

of course it does make sense to test as much as possible dogs. We are just at the beginning of the research and need all possible data. To see if it is a general problem or if there are only some lines affected - every test result helps.
Good people are working on a solution to get needed data, please stay open minded until they have new information and then decide if you will test your dog or not.

Best regards
Stefan

[saschia]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Do you remember that you have been in germany in may to the speciality with your dwarf 6 month old csw? Afterwards we had some pn contact. People over there told me that that dwarf pup is from Ondraj. I did not know that it is your pup. When we were in contact, I did ask you, if it is true what I heard? I got til today no answer.

I think it is just the stated reason. Why do you want to know which breeder it is from? The breeder is not guilty of producing the dwarf pup and therefore should not be punished by negative references. Why do you speculate and try to deduce the information that a person, who knows about the disease and promotes the mechanisms to eradicate it, does not want to reveal? Mijke has very good reason - this one:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

It would be a good thing if people start to be honest and breeders would not breed with ill dogs, like your breeder did. Maybe he did not know till his litter came. But now he has to stop breeding his bitch.

What you write is not true! First, nobody sane breeds with dog affected by dwarfism or DM, or any such crippling disease. They may breed the carriers only. And it is OK to breed carriers! It is only important not to combine them with other carriers. If you stop all carriers from breedeing, you will have only a small population of dogs, and you yourself say that inbreeding is a bad thing.

Lot of people would not buy from breeders that are known to have carriers, so how can you expect them to advertise it? That is what keeps a lot of people from testing their animals - they are afraid of a witch hunt just like yours.

[jasmine]

You are right.Many people are philistin.

[saschia]

Just a quick math to show why breeding carriers is OK:

Let's say A is gene for DM or dwafism - single gene disorder. The form A is normal, the form a is mutant. So AA is clean, Aa is carrier and aa is affected (on the level of genome, in case of DM it does not have to show).

If you combine carrier Aa with clean AA, you'll get these possibilities: 50% AA, 50% Aa. So no pups will be affected and any pup has a 50% probability that it is a carrier, but also 50% probability that it is clean!

If you combine two carriers, you'll get 25% AA, 50% Aa and 25% aa. But, in dwarfism, some dwarves die before being born, in DM not all affected animals actually get sick. So any live-born pup has a 50% chance of being carrier, 25% chance of being clean, and less than 25% chance of being affected and sick. If you have a rare bloodline, even combining carriers might be more beneficial to the whole population, than loss of the genetic material. The dog may be DM carrier, but it may also be, at the same time, clean for dwarfism, or other genetic disorders...

The more disorders you can test for, the more difficult it is to find good combinations, so it is important to keep in mind that sometimes the risks should be taken, and although it is very sad if a pup is born sick, it is still more sad if no pups are born at all.

[yukidomari]

Good post, Saschia.

Very interesting and heartening to read so many knowledgeable posts and to know that there are many people who care about this topic a lot.

[massimo]

I just want to underline once again that Blaming a breeder is NOT important in this case, DM is a recent thing (not the illness but the widespread knowledge we have about it) therefore it is USELESS to start blaming this or that breeder because of the breeding plans he did.
We should all CHANGE our perspective now...
It is POSSIBLE to breed dogs in a wide variety even if they are not N/N, all we have to do is to pay a LOT of attention.
Of course, If I have a positive dog, I would be careful which male or female I would use her/him with, but it doesn't mean the dog MUST be put out of breeding.
So, it is important to underline and stress the fact that, just because a breeder made a test on his reproducers and found out somebody is carrier or positive, this is NOT to be condemned, but instead , it is good information and will allow to make FUTURE breeding plans without the "ghost" of making a DM Positive dog.
I personally have more esteem and respect for a breeder who has a certified positive DM dog than for one who has many dogs with NO results.
I'd personally go for the Positive DM dog who is mated in an appropriate way than no info at all....

[massimo]

I read on Italian forum that if somebody found his/her dog as carrier, they would sterilize the dog.
That is REALLY a hysterical reaction, totally WRONG.
I hope everybody doesn't get hysterical about things.
A POSITIVE dog is not a SICK dog, he just is "at risk" for DM.
A CARRIER or NEGATIVE dog will never be sick for DM

DM/DM=Positive (He "could" be sick of DM, he surely will pass the gene but only "risk" about illness)
DM/N=Carrier (he CANNOT be sick of DM, he "could" pass the gene)
N/N= Negative (non può avere DM, he CANNOT pass the gene)

This is obvious to many but it seems not to ALL:

Possible Combinations:
DM/DM + DM/DM = DM/DM 100%
DM/DM + DM/N = DM/DM 75%, DM/N 25%
DM/DM + N/N = DM/N 100%
DM/N + DM/N = DM/DM 25%, DM/N 50%, N/N 25%
DM/N + N/N = DM/N 25%, N/N 75%
N/N + N/N = N/N 100%

The "risky" couplings are the ones indicated in bold
No mating will SURELY give sick dogs, because even a Positive dog can be super healthy till he dies.
I believe best would be to "avoid" risky matings but not to condemn them.

It is true, if you don't care about making puppies it's not so important to make the test...BUT
if you do make the test
1)you give indirect information about the parents of your dog ( a N/N dog CANNOT come from a DM/DM dog, a DM/DM dog CANNOT come from an N/N dog)
2) you will be more careful about the illness if you know your dog is DM/DM, you will be more careful about symptoms, and eventual cures that will be discovered.
3) you will anyway contribute to map the illness/genetic predisposition and to help find out if it's as widespread as is believed or if it is a minor problem for our breed.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by massimo

I read on Italian forum that if somebody found his/her dog as carrier, they would sterilize the dog.

Are they totally crazy please Massimo translate Mijkes topic about DM to Italian

Very best regards / Mikael

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Are they totally crazy please Massimo translate Mijkes topic about DM to Italian
Very best regards / Mikael

Believe me...on Italian forum has been written a lot more than here, just that people tend to be affected by hysteria, so short recaps (like I did both here and there) are sometimes necessary.
Not crazy nor stupid... just distracted, excited, scared...