Typical temperament of CsWs

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Why you list dominance as minus? Typical CsW males are pretty dominant - just take a look on any champion class on any bigger club show... It is (almost everytime) full a DOMINANT, self-confident males...

Sorry but the term "dominance" is very often (and also here) used in a totally wrong way. Dominance in the ethological point of view is not about self confidence but simply about the rank order in the pack. It is not a part of a character itself but only a term for a kind of social interactions.
A socially very expansive male that will show this behavior not only against dogs but also against humans is nothing desirable as a pet in our modern times. A self confident dog is something desirable because it will stay calmer in socially stressfull situations, being not in need to proof itself at any time. So a calm dog might be very self confident if it doesn´t see a need to get exited. That doesn´t tell anything about it´s trainability.

Ina

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

A socially very expansive male that will show this behavior not only against dogs but also against humans is nothing desirable as a pet in our modern times. A self confident dog is something desirable because it will stay calmer in socially stressfull situations, being not in need to proof itself at any time. So a calm dog might be very self confident if it doesn´t see a need to get exited. That doesn´t tell anything about it´s trainability.
Ina

What you described as a "top of dominance" is not typical for dogs with really strong characters but exactly for weaker individuals.
Expansive dogs which are also "sure" about their strengt are much harder to provoke. Sure, if they decide that somebody crossed the line the reaction will be hard.

The top of the pack is always a calmer individual. Self-confident dog which do not need to attack other pack members. Exactly the "second" dog tend to be more agressive: weaker animals which are affraid to "loose" what they "own" tend to be more agressive...

Dogs are not much different than people - they accept voluntarily charismatic leaders. Calm but self confident. Agressive tyrants have small chances to be accepted (and it makes them more and more angry).

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

What you described as a "top of dominance" is not typical for dogs with really strong characters but exactly for weaker individuals.
Expansive dogs which are also "sure" about their strengt are much harder to provoke. Sure, if they decide that somebody crossed the line the reaction will be hard.
.

This is not what I ment with social expansive. We bred all our dogs with less desire to be the head of the pack than an average adult wolf will show. It is what Zimen and Lorenz called "Verkindlichung". In social behaviour against humans dogs don´t get fully mature. And they also show less drive in fighting for privileges and rank position. Though there are dogs with more drive than others and with higher conflict-potential than others with their human family. Irish Wolfhounds for example normally aren´t very interested in rank orders anyway, they have one but "so what", they don´t care very much.

[z Peronówki]

One important addition:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

A socially very expansive male that will show this behavior not only against dogs but also against humans is nothing desirable as a pet in our modern times.

What you described (dogs which "love" to show their "dominanca") I personally call a "Wolfdog with character of Caucasian Ovtcharka". I would describe them not as problematic but simply as not typical.....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

One important addition:



What you described (dogs which "love" to show their "dominanca") I personally call a "Wolfdog with character of Caucasian Ovtcharka". I would describe them not as problematic but simply as not typical.....

Well, I also don´t find them problematic but most people do. And if handled the wrong way they are very problematic.

Ina

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Well, I also don´t find them problematic but most people do. And if handled the wrong way they are very problematic.

Ina

if typical wolfdog is problem- buy a labrador - york - poodle or others breed. Wolfdog NOT mas be easy and calm and nice doggy from alls people

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by wolfin

if typical wolfdog is problem- buy a labrador - york - poodle or others breed. Wolfdog NOT mas be easy and calm and nice doggy from alls people

But I think we both agree, that a life stock guarding dog like an Owtscharka is bred for totally different work than a wolfdog and therefor needs very different skills for work in itself. And in times of dangerous dog lists one should maybe think a little bit about the different circumstances in life. They simply don´t live in the border corridor any longer to prevent people to leave the country. But live in the middle of everything and live with their families.
Apart from that I start to think the problem here is a language one.
And still I don´t know what is untypical about this one dog.

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

But I think we both agree, that a life stock guarding dog like an Owtscharka is bred for totally different work than a wolfdog and therefor needs very different skills for work in itself. And in times of dangerous dog lists one should maybe think a little bit about the different circumstances in life. They simply don´t live in the border corridor any longer to prevent people to leave the country. But live in the middle of everything and live with their families.
Apart from that I start to think the problem here is a language one.
And still I don´t know what is untypical about this one dog.

Atypical, because he is a nice,kind, handable dog. Everybody could touch him, didn't show agressivity and even could be together with other males.
In Nitra we could be together with the same "pack" with Gisu, Gandalf and Emir, 3 adult males without any problem. They don't want to kill each other. For me it doesn't mean that they are atypical csw's but mean they are clear minded, stabil , well socialized dogs with good caracter .
And this kind of caracter is not the opposit what is written in the standard , and I couldn't see the connection this behaviour and working ability.
I realy don't think that the agressiv, dominant dogs would be wished nowadays.


Edit

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Edit / jasmine:

I realy don't think that the aggressiv, dominant dogs would be wished nowadays.

Yeah, that´s right - it´s exactly my opinion also !

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by jasmine

Atypical, because he is a nice,kind, handable dog. Everybody could touch him, didn't show agressivity and even could be together with other males.
In Nitra we could be together with the same "pack" with Gisu, Gandalf and Emir, 3 adult males without any problem. They don't want to kill each other. For me it doesn't mean that they are atypical csw's but mean they are clear minded, stabil , well socialized dogs with good caracter .

So everybody whos male dogs are growling on other males have not stable, bad socialized, bad minded dogs with bad character?
Because "typical CzW male loves to play and kiss other males"....?

So we have breed full of atypical dogs.... and you are the only one with the perfect animals...

Originally Posted by jasmine

I realy don't think that the agressiv, dominant dogs would be wished nowadays.

Sorry but I get allergic when I read such words....

"Aggressiv", "dominant" - what kind of breed do you want to have? Sofa dog? With lack of basic pack bahaviour? Dogs with character of a sheep?
Upps... even sheeps are pretty agressiv... And rams are VERY dominant.
As "agressiv" you can describe poodles, and yorkshire terriers (they are real beasts!). French bulldogs - killers! Did you saw how angry can be chihuahua male? When he meets another male? Sorry, but you are attacking dogs of other owners only because they behave like NORMAL DOGS!!!

10 years ago there was the same situation in Germany - Pavel and many other people will confirm it... It was the time when there were much more Saarloos Wolfdogs in Germany and CzW first started to won the publicity...
Saarloos owners attacked our breed EXACTLY with the same words: that our breed should die out because it is made of aggressive dogs. Because Saarlooos never fight with each other. They love each other - even adult males. There are no 'dominancy' against people - never are agressive against other dogs. The preffer to run away if something happend. That "we" (society) do not need "agressive" dogs like CzW.

They said EXACTLY the same.

Please - Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs ARE and SHOULD be as written in the breed standard. Please stop to make any advertising for not typical behaviour. Yes, some dogs are different - it is not a problem. But they have unusual character. And dogs like this for sure are not something which other breeders should follow.

If you keep typical character of CzW for "too agressiv", "too active" or "too self-confident" maybe it is the time to change the breed. Saarloos Wolfhounds are very nice dogs, which look similar to CzW. Such character is welcome there... And nobody will care if it will be not possible to make anything serious with the dogs...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by jasmine

I realy don't think that the agressiv, dominant dogs would be wished nowadays.

One more question: if you believe in your words why did you use Carr, Juri, Geri? All of them are "dominant" dogs (I personally call them "normal"). Why you made litters with Hitt, Borko, Koro and Ali - they are "dominant" even compared to other "dominant" CzW males?

Why you use males which you describe as not normal? And "not needed"?

[elf]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

CzWs are MUCH MORE inteligent...

It's interesting as not necessarily true and often (always) told by CSV people, the word 'intelligent' is so problematic, you may know the wolves -as I guess we would all qualify as so 'intelligent'- are performing less better than dogs to many tests, problem of 'fitting' in an environment, and regarding this point I'm sure the CSV would not overcome. Sure each tests is 'oriented', but anyway interesting enough to keep in mind.

[Morian]

Originally Posted by wolfin

if typical wolfdog is problem- buy a labrador - york - poodle or others breed. Wolfdog NOT mas be easy and calm and nice doggy from alls people

so what is the wolfdog's typical temperament?

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Morian

so what is the wolfdog's typical temperament?

Lively, very active, persistent, obedient, with quick reactions, fearless and courageous. Mistrustful. Shows tremendous loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile in his uses.
sad when this type wolfdog we can see less and less

[martiou07]

ok, , I have recognize well my dogs in this explanation

[Morian]

Originally Posted by wolfin

Lively, very active, persistent, obedient, with quick reactions, fearless and courageous. Mistrustful. Shows tremendous loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile in his uses.
sad when this type wolfdog we can see less and less

well. now sorry for my english...
obidient but living acccording to the "pack rules" - is it possible? dog's law is not human's law...