Breeding rules and methods

[Hanka]

I wrote abot HD resuts and about bonitation, I did not write about some shows.
If you look at all countries, nobody does czech bonitation, because it is most difficult and not much dogs can pass it. In all countries you can see "bonitations" or maximally slovak bonitatations, because it is more easy.
But I will not be OT here. If you want, we can continue over emails.
I only reacted on Massimo question.

[jasmine]

Why do you think that no breeding rules in Hungary ???
All of my dogs have hungarian breeding licence, Hd results.

And Pavel : till czeh and slovakian breeders use my dogs for breeding I think I have no reason to be ashamed!


Edit

Massimo : let's enjoy the comedy!

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I wrote abot HD resuts and about bonitation, I did not write about some shows.
If you look at all countries, nobody does czech bonitation, because it is most difficult and not much dogs can pass it. In all countries you can see "bonitations" or maximally slovak bonitatations, because it is more easy.
But I will not be OT here. If you want, we can continue over emails.
I only reacted on Massimo question.

Well, apart from my totally different opinion concerning Czech and Slovakian bonitations that we surely shall not discuss here, are the Slovakian HD-results from messurement, as well as the German ones (we even messure more points then you as far as I know).
And I am more concerned about the more actual health problems that have been discussed here in other discussions and that are not taken care of till now.
The Slovakian Club did help actively with the research poject, it was discussed on the Club meeting, a lot of members did give blood samples, several members of the Club head did actively help, one breeder with very old dogs does now take the work and brings them to the vet to send samples. Italians gave blood samples, Germans did, Swedish people will help, Dutch people do, Margo promised to take care, Edit asked me to take blood form all of her dogs the next time I will be in this region
The Czech Club member that was there got the papers but till now we got no reaction. That might be my fault cause I didn´t find time to send another mail and there was a language problem with English, but now this is a good oportunity, if the Czech Club is interested you can contact Sona or me or Mijke or Saschia etc. to send you the papers and explanations.

Ina

[Hanka]

Hi Ina, and what you sent there and you have not answer? Write me it, I ask what hapenned when you have not answer or I can help you too.
Yes, I read your topic from yesterdsay, you wait some translation from Sonja. And you sent something similar to czech club too? To what person? Let me know and I will "put" it here.
You can in email.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Hanka

In all countries you can see "bonitations" or maximally slovak bonitatations, because it is more easy.

Hi Hanka,

why is it easier?
This dog ( and many more...) www.wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d9548.html got a P1 in a Czech bonitation.
This wouldn't most likely have happened in Slovakia, because of his index of height.
So isn't it not just the other way round?

Regards,
Michael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, I think, exist differents in countries in measuring of HD. And in some countries NOBODY measure X-ray photos, but doctor only look at photo and write result. It is bad, but true.

I can only write about my experience and your statement is highly invalid. In the vet clinic were most Krakow CSVs are tested for HD and ED six X-ray pictures are made on the most modern US equipment and each dog gets a CD with the photos and a special programme by which the angles are precisely measured. The angles are tested by regular method AND additionaly a Pen Hip! Before the test the vet makes sure the dog is at least 15 months old (not even a day less!) and takes the pedigree, so the owner cannot "escape" without the result put on it. Dr Orzeł, (a surgeon!) measures the angles in the presence of the owner and another vet and gives initiary results. Then the results and the pedigree are sent to the vet who has the right to put it in the dog's pedigree! In most cases it's dr Simebieda, but not only. If the owner wishes the results can be sent to another wet with authority to put them onto the pedigree. There was not even one case of different results by Dr Orzeł and another vet!

I also heard many stories of unreliabilty of Czech dogs HD results, but I'm far from blaming all Czech owners/breeders/vets of cheating or lack of competence.
Besides, the Czech Republic is not the center of Universe and as far as I know, CSVs herd books are in Slovakian hands

BTW Have you ever heard about the notion of TRUST? If all people breeding CSV would have your imperialistic approach we could forget about any international cooperation.

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi Hanka,

why is it easier?
This dog ( and many more...) www.wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d9548.html got a P1 in a Czech bonitation.
This wouldn't most likely have happened in Slovakia, because of his index of height.
So isn't it not just the other way round?

Regards,
Michael

ohh Michael ,

The very strict czeh bonitacio, extra strict Hd examination, super working dogs, super od Uhoste, super Hanka
Typical mystification of Hanka. And for her doesn't matter that many of us could write many many counter-example.
And of course she took part in this conversation, please don't forget she also has 4 litters for sale

I don't think that Sonja or Oscar would give the good bonitacion marks just for fun!


Edit

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi Ina, and what you sent there and you have not answer? Write me it, I ask what hapenned when you have not answer or I can help you too.
Yes, I read your topic from yesterdsay, you wait some translation from Sonja. And you sent something similar to czech club too? To what person? Let me know and I will "put" it here.
You can in email.

Hanka,

the club head that was in Hanarovo got the same papers and an explanation from me there everybody else got, I was very happy I had the oportunity to meet somebody of the Czech Club since Sona couldn´t manage to reach anybody.
He was also there when the matter was discussed at the Club meeting. He told me he has problems with English so he will read it at home and he asked me to send an email to him and talk to you as you take care of this. The last things I wasn´t able to do as I have a life apart from CSW and have to earn some money sometimes, so this part was clearly my fault.

But nevertheless, Bern was talked about here in this forum, the papers are in the Czech Republic, the health problem is known since some time and how many Czech Results of blood tests are there, I wrote here that Bern will store blood for free, how many Czech blood samples are there? I can tell you how many Slovakian ones are there. The Slovakians immediadly took action when asked for, they had a lot of questions and we talked about it three nights till early morning but they wanted to help the breed, not everybody joined in but this is normal.

I completly agree with Rona, this kind of talk about other countries, especially about Slovakia is highly contraproductiv apart from being wrong too. To create some pseudo Rep-free lines with mother-genes totally ignored is no longer enough, to concentrate on IPO-training is the method that ruined already the GSD, to point the finger on everybody living outside your country is not very helpfull and and and.
Sorry, but you got me on an impatient day, so I wrote what I think about it not what might be political sensible as I normally try to do (though not very successful).

Ina

[jefta]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi Hanka,

why is it easier?
This dog ( and many more...) www.wolfdog.org/deu/dbase/d9548.html got a P1 in a Czech bonitation.
This wouldn't most likely have happened in Slovakia, because of his index of height.
So isn't it not just the other way round?

Regards,
Michael

http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/98248/
is it short legged and so long dog

but I hope that charakter test is judged more severely than in SK

[jasmine]

Hey Admin ,


The last parts realy don't belong to me...so I'm just wondering, if you could turn part the temperamebt topic into two parts....why doesn't you put these parts to the right place?

Thanks,


Edit

[Hanka]

Hi Ina,
do you write about leader of Czech club? Karel Skoupy? Did he promised you something and result was zero? You write about man.....
Because sometimes I don´t understand all in english language, what you write.

Other stupid articles I will not comment...................I am adult already.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by jasmine

And I must ask you Margo, if I always make bad litters why do you use always the same males for breeding?????

Hero z Rofa
Borko Kollarov Dvor
I used Koro you used Kondor.......
I used Carr M.B just Mona was empty
Hitt Spod Dumbiera
Juri Zlata Palz
wanted to use Argo Tajomy Tulak....than Alf T.T and his son........
very creative ideas!!!!!!


Edit

ha ha in this case I used Amir z Vlcej rokliny and NOTHING NOT CAN used him now, when I be first.

funny ? yes? when we all have others line pedigree and all male who we used thogether have others puppy pedigree with us alls female.
realy this topic are very funny

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Rona

In the vet clinic were most Krakow CSVs are tested for HD and ED six X-ray pictures are made on the most modern US equipment and each dog gets a CD with the photos and a special programme by which the angles are precisely measured. eeding CSV would have your imperialistic approach we could forget about an

we have this same. A littl3e strange when ours GSD has in LT HD B or HD C and go to Germany to SV vet and got a HD A. I think Hanka You have only megalomania about alls who have in CZ- betters dogs, betters HD betters bonitation. You realy think all others country and people arre stupid and dark. sorry I moore believe in others country work not in CZ. Why- when down pink glases maybe and You see this.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi Ina,
do you write about leader of Czech club? Karel Skoupy? Did he promised you something and result was zero? You write about man.....
Because sometimes I don´t understand all in english language, what you write.

Other stupid articles I will not comment...................I am adult already.

It doesn´t matter who it was and he doesn´t promise anything. My point was that from THAT country doing everything better than anybody else I would expect some more reaction to severe problems, not less reaction.
Ali Reolup died after the possibility of gene tests occured and after a DNA-database was started, he is in the pedigree of very many dogs, all his littermates are dead. Did you think of keeping a blood sample of him or is his DNA lost forever? How many dogs in Czech Republik are tested?

If you tell us your country is doing everthing better than anybody else you will be confronted with questions like that...

Ina

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Other stupid articles I will not comment...................I am adult already.

Adults try to be realistic and don't drop bulshits.
But through the pink glasess (that's good Daiva !!! ) the world is realy nice....BUT NOT TRUE !!!!!!!!!!!

Edit

[Hanka]

No Ina, read it once again.
i wrote, I use sometimes foreign dogs for me too. But it is a pitty, they have not czech for example Hd results (of course). because i will see HJd result from our doctor and I can compare it. because in other countries can be different system. I know all doctors must conside Hd the same, but it is uthopy. Always will be differencies. and if all dogs will have the same bonitation (I mean test of character, because measuring is + - the same) I can image WHAT dog is. But a few different test of characters....I can see code about character, but I know nothing about dog, because absolutelly differernt test of charatcer.
It is not secret, my Ali was carier of dwarfism. He has it from parents- of course. I never keep it like secret. Ali was carrier like teoreticly over 3600 wolfdogs in the world - offsprings of Amur z Ďáblova kaňonu. Everybody who want or wont to know it, can ask me or all breeding commission in CZ. Nobody will keep it in scret. So why you ask me about his test???
I organised colection of blood here last year, but here was not much people which had money for it. So now we try it once again. Now is here more people which want test dogs. So my plane is to do it in spring, because will be more new owners. So where is problem? maybe next time first you can ask me what is new about tests and I answer you.
and I must tell you: only me organised it in past, nobody other. So, please, don´t write me in this tone.......
But if in all World will be minimally the same breeding rules like here, I will be happy. we will have HD, ED checked dogs, shy dogs can´t pass bonitation, somebody will watch groups of bloods, somebody will lead breeding in country.......but it is always the same...............
I don´t see other countries where all breeding dogs must have some these tests. Everybody do it only voluntarilly.
I wont help you with your problem from Havranovo, because I don´t know what happened in comunication with our club....But no, on this level no.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

But if in all World will be minimally the same breeding rules like here, I will be happy. we will have HD, ED checked dogs,

ED? ha ha you make this if i good member only 1- or 2 years and who panic was when they mas make. In Lithuania ( oh poore, stupid country and vet) make this from 2003 years with wolfdogs.

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...76&postcount=6
(p.s. i put this info, when Hanka maybe forget about this. Sory but in CZ not are ED statistic per years.)

p.s. If I good member NOT ALL wolfdog in CZ and now make ED test, only this who want. In LT this make ALL dogs.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Sorry Hanka but you started this tone on others first and I am not the only one that got you this way. That was the reason why I asked you back in the same manner.
And I didn´t ask about dwarfism but about DM and blood samples in DNA-databases.
Also the Czech bonitation codes are not of much use for me because of the Indices not being of consequence for the result and the kind of character test you do, that doesn´t show for me the inherited character of the dog.

So obviously we both have the same problem and should work together not against each other.

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by Hanka

No Ina, read it once again.
i wrote, I use sometimes foreign dogs for me too. But it is a pitty, they have not czech for example Hd results (of course). because i will see HJd result from our doctor and I can compare it. because in other countries can be different system. I know all doctors must conside Hd the same, but it is uthopy. Always will be differencies. and if all dogs will have the same bonitation (I mean test of character, because measuring is + - the same) I can image WHAT dog is. But a few different test of characters....I can see code about character, but I know nothing about dog, because absolutelly differernt test of charatcer.
It is not secret, my Ali was carier of dwarfism. He has it from parents- of course. I never keep it like secret. Ali was carrier like teoreticly over 3600 wolfdogs in the world - offsprings of Amur z Ďáblova kaňonu. Everybody who want or wont to know it, can ask me or all breeding commission in CZ. Nobody will keep it in scret. So why you ask me about his test???
I organised colection of blood here last year, but here was not much people which had money for it. So now we try it once again. Now is here more people which want test dogs. So my plane is to do it in spring, because will be more new owners. So where is problem? maybe next time first you can ask me what is new about tests and I answer you.
and I must tell you: only me organised it in past, nobody other. So, please, don´t write me in this tone.......
But if in all World will be minimally the same breeding rules like here, I will be happy. we will have HD, ED checked dogs, shy dogs can´t pass bonitation, somebody will watch groups of bloods, somebody will lead breeding in country.......but it is always the same...............
I don´t see other countries where all breeding dogs must have some these tests. Everybody do it only voluntarilly.
I wont help you with your problem from Havranovo, because I don´t know what happened in comunication with our club....But no, on this level no.

blablablablablablablablabla.....just wash your hands!!!!!!!!!!!
you jump to your own trap !!!!!
do you want to drop your bulshits to us??? we also deal with this breed for ages!!!!!!!

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I know all doctors must conside Hd the same, but it is uthopy.

I'm sorry, this is not too important in this matter but in the USA there are 2 methods for testing hips and they are different.

Not all methods are the same, I'm not sure which are used in Europe but in the USA it is either registered with OFFA which gives rating like "Excellent" "Good", "Fair", etc. It takes a single film, and it is sent to OFFA headquarters and rated there. The animal does not need to be drugged to sleep.

Or, it is registered with PennHIP, which has PennHIP licensed vets, and they give scores by numerical rating. 3 films are taken, the animal is sleeping so the hips can be manipulated into correct position (which is painful if awake).

PennHIP in my opinion is the more accurate of the two methods, it can be done on animals as young as 16 weeks, but is best recommended to take the exam multiple times as the animal grows and take the average of the scores to 'predict' final hip score.

PennHIP was pioneered at the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary College, one of the best and foremost veterinary practices in the USA.

This is example of OFFA film:
http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

These are examples of PennHIP's three films:
http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhi...8/Default.aspx

PS - It is entirely possible for 2 vets to disagree on OFFA type film because there is an "art" of examining the film, but PennHIP type is taken by mathematical measurement.