Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

Was there a spesific reason to conclude that there must be more than one mixing taken place?
...
But I just wanted to point out, that if suddenly some weird looking puppies of homozygous recessive genotype (like in this case bb / brown coloured) occurs, it may very well be a result of only one "oopsie daisy" that is just doubled in the pedigree (comes from both parent's sides).

That is true. On the other hand, if you look at pedigree of Thalia, you see that her parents are dogs from pure Slovak lines - I mean Fallko being born 11 years ago and Mona 13 years ago - I just don't believe there could be crossing with Saarloos in Slovakia that long ago, and for sure not by "oopsy-daisy" accident. I would like to believe it would be impossible even today, but of course that is naivity, but 11-13 years ago? When was the first Saarloos visiting Slovakia? When was the first Saarloos imported here? In year 1998, when Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora was born, the Csechoslovak Wolfdog was finally accepted as regular FCI breed. It was a huge success for slovak breeders. I just cannot imagine, why would anyone, at that time, mix with the "competition", even if they would have access.

Recessive gene, that would be shown by puppies of Sibir and Thalia (and nowhere else!) could be introduced by either Fallko, or Mona, because they are the common relatives. Or by mixing, and declaring false parents, but if we do not accept the possibility, that Fallko or Mona were mixes, then the mixing would have had to occur twice at least, once for Thalia and once for Sibir or one of his parents.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by saschia

That is true. On the other hand, if you look at pedigree of Thalia, you see that her parents are dogs from pure Slovak lines - I mean Fallko being born 11 years ago and Mona 13 years ago - I just don't believe there could be crossing with Saarloos in Slovakia that long ago, and for sure not by "oopsy-daisy" accident. I would like to believe it would be impossible even today, but of course that is naivity, but 11-13 years ago? When was the first Saarloos visiting Slovakia? When was the first Saarloos imported here? In year 1998, when Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora was born, the Csechoslovak Wolfdog was finally accepted as regular FCI breed. It was a huge success for slovak breeders. I just cannot imagine, why would anyone, at that time, mix with the "competition", even if they would have access.

Recessive gene, that would be shown by puppies of Sibir and Thalia (and nowhere else!) could be introduced by either Fallko, or Mona, because they are the common relatives. Or by mixing, and declaring false parents, but if we do not accept the possibility, that Fallko or Mona were mixes, then the mixing would have had to occur twice at least, once for Thalia and once for Sibir or one of his parents.

i think antswer are in photo from this kennel - boxes and fences and dogs lives in this boxes. can hapened all whehn female live in this type kennel.

and .. very easy make pedigree for falsh dogs when not mas have DNA testing in puppy but .. genetic not lie - we can see diferent in anatomy not only in color.

[jmvdwiel]

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/ some explanation about coat colors

[saschia]

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/ some explanation about coat colors

Citation from the webpage: "Amber eyes usually occur when the eumelanin in the coat is diluted or modified by the recessive genes in the B or D series. In other words, all liver dogs (bb) have amber eyes, and so do blue and isabella dogs (dd). Occasionally dogs with black pigment also have amber eyes, but in general they're found just on livers and dilutes.
Amber eyes vary from light brown (overlapping with the lighter eyes sometimes found in black-pigmented dogs) to yellow, yellow-green or grey."

Well, although their information is not wrong (hopefully), it is quite incomplete, so it needs to be taken accordingly.

Otherwise thanks for the link, it is interesting read.

[Nebulosa]

A simple color mutation would not change the dog tipicity, you all would be able to recognize them as czechoslovakian wolfdog because they would be typical dogs according to the standard.
Even by such simple photo we can have an idea that the skull proportions are wrong! And not only that, if we look at the pups of the mentioned litters we all will see that the dogs are weird according to the standard, ones more, others less.
Lets forget about the nice history of a possible mutation and get real about a possible accident envolving mixes.
It also kick out the possibility of an pedigree analysis, we only can guess where this saarloos (or other) entered.
There is an unknown dog (or more) at these pedigrees which we dont know when entered and how, the COI and everything else will be wrong.

[admin]

After several emails I received last time and taking into consideration the behavioral of the mentioned breeder and her lack of any will to cooperation by clearing this case I must suggest that we have here to do not with an mutation but with intentional mixes.

I received information that by Crying Wolf appeared two litters which show many characteristics typical for Saarloos + overgrown sizes. It is strange that nobody was suprised (even in the origin countries) that by kennel where dogs hardly reach the minimum size unexpectedly appeared litters where females are even bigger than the Czech lines - usually about 68cm. A MIRACLE? Only children can believe it it.

Examples:
females with 68cm:



and typical weak Saarloos expresion

It seems that "affected" are not only suggested litters of T-Crying wolf and S-Crying Wolf but also V-Crying Wolf and Y-Crying Wolf. And their offsprings.

We ask for help to clear this problem. The breeder do not want to cooperate (no wonder if she knews what she is doing). The Hungarian Kennel is also not a big help: it was already proven by the problems with export pedigrees and another issues connected with Crying Wolf kennel.

WE ask for help the Slovak club and some of the suspiciurs animals are living also there and there was at last one litter of one the the "Saarloos" females.

[Silvester]

These photos show clearly that it is indeed not only a different colour but they are mixes !
From the beginning of the discussion here it was all time much more probably that a mixing had taken place.

Just what nebulosa, wolfin , me and others had already strongly supposed before....

In spite of this it´s not very pleasant news .

Best greetings , Uli alias Silvester

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Admin

It seems that "affected" are not only suggested litters of T-Crying wolf and S-Crying Wolf but also V-Crying Wolf and Y-Crying Wolf. And their offsprings.

The list of suspected mix breed Cs Vlcaks are growing rapidly, I did send a e-mail to the FCI in 2009 but nothing did happen, they did not even care to respond, I think ALL breeders need to act on this at the same time, if ALL serious breeders sign a letter demanding FCI to act, it will be very hard for them not to, off course we also need SL and CZ club + other big clubs to support this... As it is now nothing is happening and the list of suspected mixes are growing longer and longer by the day.
Best regards / Mikael

[Sona_Bognarova]

I am responding not only on the topic of Issar Kollarov dvor’s paternity but on paternity dispute in general. We all know well that only DNA tests compulsory in all countries can solve the situation finally. False data on parents can impact all breeders and owners. Financial issue is complicated, but solvable. I assume that it should be organised officially on breeders’ clubs or superior organisations (if there is no CSW club in a particular country yet) level.
At present, Issar Kollarov dvor really is in Crying Wolf kennel but I am still his owner. Mating Issar x Flash CW (litter Y CW) happened when Issar was still at my place and when I was present there.
Slovak CSW club asked me for co-operation in this particular case yesterday, therefore I will provide the Slovak club with potential information. I will deal with the situation in close contact with Edit Molnar, of course.
However, the whole CSW community should realise that accusing any particular breeder on any forum and asking for DNA test that way we will never achieve anything. Doing a DNA test is just the step A, we have to think about consequent steps as well. In cases of particular DNA tests carried out BEFORE introducing compulsory tests in all countries it will be inevitable to answer many questions, such as:

Who is eligible to ask for a test?
Provided the owner/breeder agrees to do the test, who covers the test and related costs?
What happens if the test confirms the parents data being false?

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Admin

It seems that "affected" are not only suggested litters of T-Crying wolf and S-Crying Wolf but also V-Crying Wolf and Y-Crying Wolf. And their offsprings..

I need some clarification on this - the "Y" litter, as in Yolka? This is Pollux's mother and this is very important to me.

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7930

Other than suspicions, is there any proof that other breeds were mixed into her lines (other than the initial project back in the 1950's)?

Pollux is a wonderful dog in looks (he's drop dead gorgeous!) but as you mentioned, he is a little large and we always assumed his temperament is a result of his upbringing (a lot of neglect). (Too bad, too, because if we could get around the skittishness then he would be awesom for acting!)

If it tuns out that he is a Saarloos mix we will make sure he isn't used in any breeding program here in the USA.

From what I've heard in the past DNA tests are not that relaible, mixes show up as pure and vice versa. How can we check?

As for "red" - this is *very* common in GSDs especially in German lines, our Kiri is VERY red and if the genes were in the initial projct then there is a good chance that they could still be in some lines, just hidden especially if red is recessive.

I think there is a full litter mate / sibling to Pollux here in the USA also (San Diego, perhaps?) I think either Marcy or Pete knows them. If it turns out Yolka is a mix then we'll need to track these people down and let them know.

Added: We may DNA test Pollux (Lunas Mom and I are discussing it now).

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by wolfin

i think antswer are in photo from this kennel - boxes and fences and dogs lives in this boxes. can hapened all whehn female live in this type kennel.

I was talking to another Vlcak owner and I wondered the same thing, if all the males always live separate and all the females are kept in entire separate enclosure, otherwise how can someone prevent unwanted pairing especially if they do not live with the dogs?