Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[Vaiva]

Napisał elf

I hesitated to put pictures, but lets go:

I am sorry for the off topic, but I will save these photos and show them to my dog whenever she feels her life with me is difficult....

[jmvdwiel]

What I can find on my search on the internet is that a brown/red color can happen in GSD. Some nice pictures and an easy reading about the genetics you can find in the links below.

http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/fawn.html
http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/7week.html
http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/info.htmlhttp://www.bluedogs.8m.com/info.html

[wolfin]

Napisał jmvdwiel

What I can find on my search on the internet is that a brown/red color can happen in GSD. Some nice pictures and an easy reading about the genetics you can find in the links below.

http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/fawn.html
http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/7week.html
http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/info.htmlhttp://www.bluedogs.8m.com/info.html

one thing this are USA GSD not Germany GSD. I special speak with ours breeder about this posibility and they say - not know this type born in pure German blood GSD. USA have others type and who know who blood are in this dogs. Germany GSD have very strong testing and .. strange this type mutation in european GSD litter not hapend. Question why

p.s. I speak about pure GSD who have VS pedigree.
p.s.
http://hauspharao.com/colorgenetics/diagHQ.jpg
this are pure GSD colors. other genetical in pure GSD not can be. but ... in example about atypical color are only USA dogs photo- realy question why this example not can find in european pure GSD with SV pedigree.

[jmvdwiel]

We also know that not all breeders are always honest about 'not normal' pups, and sometimes they just disappear as if they never were born... what you can't see in my dogs it's simple not there.

Napisał wolfin

one thing this are USA GSD not Germany GSD. I special speak with ours breeder about this posibility and they say - not know this type born in pure German blood GSD. USA have others type and who know who blood are in this dogs. Germany GSD have very strong testing and .. strange this type mutation in european GSD litter not hapend. Question why

p.s. I speak about pure GSD who have VS pedigree.

[wolfin]

Napisał jmvdwiel

We also know that not all breeders are always honest about 'not normal' pups, and sometimes they just disappear as if they never were born... what you can't see in my dogs it's simple not there.

sory but this dog in photo and others example not are typical GSD with pure SV pedigree.
like this brown CSV, why mutation have and sarlos anatomy? not to strange?
p.s. I speak with this breeder who know all " who hapened in breed" and say all who is who. and I believe in they info, when know they are good breeder who realy love breed and make all for breed goodnes. in this case I not believe in falsh info about GSD with SV pedigree

[wolfin]

p.s. this jpg abouyt GSD color are DNA testing result about this, I think if exist atypical color DNA testing mas say this too.

[yukidomari]

Maybe I'm wrong but if I assume that red may come from GSD than I can also assume that CsV may also show up in blue color, white color, all black color, etc, since all these are colors found in GSDs..... but in my limited experience and knowledge of CsV I have not seen one like this in any gallery or history, and if I saw one today I would also think it was a recent mix..

[wolfin]

Napisał yukidomari

Maybe I'm wrong but if I assume that red may come from GSD than I can also assume that CsV may also show up in blue color, white color, all black color, etc, since all these are colors found in GSDs..... but in my limited experience and knowledge of CsV I have not seen one like this in any gallery or history, and if I saw one today I would also think it was a recent mix..

in CSV are wolfgrey GSD blood - I think we mas see in this color table and try understand who is wolfgrey GSD gens and can this dogs have others gens or not ( if this are like resesive gens in this case grey GSD not can have others color puppy ) I hope i explain who I have in my mind

[yukidomari]

Napisał wolfin

in CSV are wolfgrey GSD blood - I think we mas see in this color table and try understand who is wolfgrey GSD gens and can this dogs have others gens or not ( if this are like resesive gens in this case grey GSD not can have others color puppy ) I hope i explain who I have in my mind

I think I understand, yes. Do you mean only phenotype sable GSDs were used in foundation?

[wolfin]

Napisał yukidomari

I think I understand, yes. Do you mean only phenotype sable GSDs were used in foundation?

from this info who we can search - yes wolfgreyh working line GSD - this same GSD now work in army and policie and are grey too ( or black and very smal procent are black and tan like show GSD)

[jmvdwiel]

Coat color is an interesting subject, and what I did understand not an easy thing to understand.

There are different genes for coat color and patern, and the mixing of these things do make the color of the coat we actually see on our dog.

There is a gen for the coat color in GSD it is B (black) en b (brown)
B is dominat over b
BB is black
Bb is black
bb is brown

Then there is a patern of the coat, wolfgrey and sable are coat paterns.
This means those genes wil tell where the black/brown color is showing on our dog and that on some parts of the dog the black is not visible.

Then there is a dilution gen......
When you coat color is black geneticly it wil show on the dog as a blue color.
When your coat color is brown geneticly it wil show on the dog as a lighter version liver?

Maybe someone here can tell us more about this thing coat color, as i find it very hard stuff to deal with. And there can always be a spontanious mutation of a gen...... like the Panda german shepherd.

[wolfin]

GSD are a, at, aw, as, A
like are in books aw x aw born only aw - wolf grey
A are only teorical black when in dogs are a black dogs
a x a - all black
aw x a - wolfgrey
at x as - black and tan

this are color genetic who not change anatomy, ( bones, head type and moore)

p.s. Your dog can realy help to DNA testing in this case

[Jennin Lauma]

Napisał saschia

elf, I agree with you, the color is only one of the problem, but it is the one that can be cleared up relatively easily. If there was mixing, to produce red puppies, at least two mixings (with at least 1 SW) would have to occur. So once is a possibility of accident, but twice... I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers...

Was there a spesific reason to conclude that there must be more than one mixing taken place?

I'm just wondering, because this does not necessarely have to be the case.

If there is any inbreeding (like in this case there is), then it does not need more than one individual to introduce a new trait (recessive gene) into the lineage/breed. Because due to inbreeding, this one individual may end up appearing in both parent's sides in the pedigree. -And in such situation, the chances are that some day in some certain pairing the recessive gene gets doubled, and so it appears in the phenotype of some offspring.

Of course there CAN be more than one "oopsie daisy" (a mix up by accident or on purpose) taken place.
But I just wanted to point out, that if suddenly some weird looking puppies of homozygous recessive genotype (like in this case bb / brown coloured) occurs, it may very well be a result of only one "oopsie daisy" that is just doubled in the pedigree (comes from both parent's sides).

Recessive traits may jump over several generations unnoticed, and it may take time before (due to the chances of random selection of the genes) some day some certain individual will inherit two copies of this recessive gene, that once came from possibly only one certain anchestor who passed it forward over several generations.

[Nebulosa]

Napisał Hanka

We prefer not mix to this problem other breeds.......

I guess it's a quite important problem to worry about "what others will think about", analizing all this topic, the easier and cheaper way to discover if the dogs are mixes of this saarloos or not, would be asking the DNA of Dvorak and making the comparison.
We all prefer not mix CzW problems with other breeds, but seems like in this case, other breeds are getting mixed in CzW breed without we know about, and it could be simply tragic.
We only need to know if there were more Saarloos living there than Dvorak itself.

[elf]

CSV GSD origin

Napisał Admin

I think it is common mistake because some people do not understand the origin of CsW.

Yes, there are different colours by "new" GSD (because many GSD living now are more or less mixes of different breeds). But it do not aplly to our breed.

By for making Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs were used ONLY WOLFGREY colored German Shepherds:

They were dogs coming from the old DDR lines which were PURE (not mixed with other unknown breeds so there were not liver, merle or any other "strange" colours).

Do not also compare CsW to Saarloos - one more time: the DNA test show that Saarloos are NOT (pure) wolf x GSD crosses. They are crosses of different breeeds - they are not mixes but mutts. It is why you can meet there some really strange dogs with all possible colors. The other breeds were added by Saarloos but also later there was a lot of pedigree cheating by Saarloos breeders.

Till now Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs were free of such cheating. Because of it there are NEVER born any liver, white or black Wolfdogs. Because such genes to not EXIST here. In the 30 years not even one such case was born in the "pure" lines in CZ and SK (and by breeders which breed pure CsW).

So if you see any "strange" Wolfdog the ONLY explanation is that it is nore PUREBREED dog. Not a mutation, not a "genes from the past" - but because of not pure blood added tosuch dog.

[saschia]

Napisał Jennin Lauma

Was there a spesific reason to conclude that there must be more than one mixing taken place?
...
But I just wanted to point out, that if suddenly some weird looking puppies of homozygous recessive genotype (like in this case bb / brown coloured) occurs, it may very well be a result of only one "oopsie daisy" that is just doubled in the pedigree (comes from both parent's sides).

That is true. On the other hand, if you look at pedigree of Thalia, you see that her parents are dogs from pure Slovak lines - I mean Fallko being born 11 years ago and Mona 13 years ago - I just don't believe there could be crossing with Saarloos in Slovakia that long ago, and for sure not by "oopsy-daisy" accident. I would like to believe it would be impossible even today, but of course that is naivity, but 11-13 years ago? When was the first Saarloos visiting Slovakia? When was the first Saarloos imported here? In year 1998, when Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora was born, the Csechoslovak Wolfdog was finally accepted as regular FCI breed. It was a huge success for slovak breeders. I just cannot imagine, why would anyone, at that time, mix with the "competition", even if they would have access.

Recessive gene, that would be shown by puppies of Sibir and Thalia (and nowhere else!) could be introduced by either Fallko, or Mona, because they are the common relatives. Or by mixing, and declaring false parents, but if we do not accept the possibility, that Fallko or Mona were mixes, then the mixing would have had to occur twice at least, once for Thalia and once for Sibir or one of his parents.

[wolfin]

Napisał saschia

That is true. On the other hand, if you look at pedigree of Thalia, you see that her parents are dogs from pure Slovak lines - I mean Fallko being born 11 years ago and Mona 13 years ago - I just don't believe there could be crossing with Saarloos in Slovakia that long ago, and for sure not by "oopsy-daisy" accident. I would like to believe it would be impossible even today, but of course that is naivity, but 11-13 years ago? When was the first Saarloos visiting Slovakia? When was the first Saarloos imported here? In year 1998, when Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora was born, the Csechoslovak Wolfdog was finally accepted as regular FCI breed. It was a huge success for slovak breeders. I just cannot imagine, why would anyone, at that time, mix with the "competition", even if they would have access.

Recessive gene, that would be shown by puppies of Sibir and Thalia (and nowhere else!) could be introduced by either Fallko, or Mona, because they are the common relatives. Or by mixing, and declaring false parents, but if we do not accept the possibility, that Fallko or Mona were mixes, then the mixing would have had to occur twice at least, once for Thalia and once for Sibir or one of his parents.

i think antswer are in photo from this kennel - boxes and fences and dogs lives in this boxes. can hapened all whehn female live in this type kennel.

and .. very easy make pedigree for falsh dogs when not mas have DNA testing in puppy but .. genetic not lie - we can see diferent in anatomy not only in color.

[jmvdwiel]

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/ some explanation about coat colors

[yukidomari]

Napisał wolfin

i think antswer are in photo from this kennel - boxes and fences and dogs lives in this boxes. can hapened all whehn female live in this type kennel.

I was talking to another Vlcak owner and I wondered the same thing, if all the males always live separate and all the females are kept in entire separate enclosure, otherwise how can someone prevent unwanted pairing especially if they do not live with the dogs?

[saschia]

Napisał jmvdwiel

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/ some explanation about coat colors

Citation from the webpage: "Amber eyes usually occur when the eumelanin in the coat is diluted or modified by the recessive genes in the B or D series. In other words, all liver dogs (bb) have amber eyes, and so do blue and isabella dogs (dd). Occasionally dogs with black pigment also have amber eyes, but in general they're found just on livers and dilutes.
Amber eyes vary from light brown (overlapping with the lighter eyes sometimes found in black-pigmented dogs) to yellow, yellow-green or grey."

Well, although their information is not wrong (hopefully), it is quite incomplete, so it needs to be taken accordingly.

Otherwise thanks for the link, it is interesting read.