Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored) - Page 13

wolfin · 19/07/2011, 15h45

Citation:

Envoyé par Vicky

So, I've seen this dog pop up quite a bit when I've looked at pedigrees:

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1331

Am I crazy, or wouldn't you consider that red? Or is it just because it's an old photo?

he not red like are red sarlos - this is big differences.

Morian · 19/07/2011, 15h57

Citation:

Envoyé par Vicky

Or is it just because it's an old photo?

surely it is.

red?

real:

Morian · 19/07/2011, 16h02

and here we can see agouti red which is impossible in our breed (but possible in saarlos wh)

Citation:

Envoyé par martiou07

19/07/2011, 16h08

Thanks for the clarification.

I figured there had to be something to it that I was missing! It's really hard when all you have to go on are photos.

saschia · 19/07/2011, 16h14

Vicky, Tambury was quite dark, you are right, but that was red with a lot of black in it too. The saarloos red is without black and the nose is red/liver which is the best showing that something is very wrong.

hanninadina · 20/07/2011, 20h10

Sorry, here the pic from the german wolf pup - in red ...

Jennin Lauma · 20/07/2011, 22h37

Vicky & Christian;

The animals you referred to are not genetically the same kind of "red" as the Saarloos. The animals in the pics you linked have pheomelanin red, and Christian, the puppy could be described as more "pheomelanistic" than average European wolves, -just like the Finnish/Russian "yellow" wolves I showed you.

The Saarloos "red" is not pheomelanin at all, but eumelanin (normally black) switched to brown. It is genetically exactly the same as the brown labrador, but in Saarloos it is just combined with the agouti coloring.
When the dog has this genotype bb for brown eumelanin, then ALL the black pigment in the animal turns brown. -Not just the hair, but skin too!

And you can clearly see that the animals in your pictures have BLACK nose & lips etc. They cannot be genetically bb (brown) like the forrest brown Saarloos and the dog born into Lorry's litter.

I recommend you go back in this topic and find my previous posts where I allready explained this. And I might even have shared some photos of the "pheomelanistic" FinnoRussian wolves.

(Edit) I helped you out and looked it up for you. Here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=34

admin · 08/09/2011, 02h00

Do you have any news about solving of the problem of the possible Saarloos mixes by Crying Wolf?

I received several litter advertising where breeders use the suspected lines (similar to the "red" lines from France - http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18510). What is strange form me that on the list are also breeders from the origin countries....

Anyway we have our doubts if we should advertise the litters here on Wolfdog.org till the story will be finally solved.
Nobody of us want to be responsible for the situation where puppy buyers will get a mixed breed puppy with the "help" of Wolfdog.org.

admin · 08/09/2011, 02h04

Are there any news on this topic? Any DNA tests?

Priska182 · 08/09/2011, 02h36

So, if a dog is potentially a mix you don't post on wolfdog advertisement for possible litter from this suspect dog right?

yukidomari · 08/09/2011, 04h05

What about a special tag 'under investigation' or so? i agree it's a tricky situation! i'm disappointed to learn from reading other language forums that the origin kennel Crying Wolf is not cooperating with DNA requests.

Shadowlands · 08/09/2011, 08h25

Like Yukidomari, I am upset that they are not carrying out DNA tests - simple, inexpensive and would put everyone at ease (or let everyone know what is going on - perhaps this is the problem?) Until they carry out these simple tests, there is a big question mark hanging over the breed as a lot of dogs are now derived from these suspect litters.

It would be so nice to have a conclusion so that everyone can move forwards in confidence.

tupacs2legs · 08/09/2011, 11h27

Citation:

Envoyé par Shadowlands

Like Yukidomari, I am upset that they are not carrying out DNA tests - simple, inexpensive and would put everyone at ease (or let everyone know what is going on - perhaps this is the problem?) Until they carry out these simple tests, there is a big question mark hanging over the breed as a lot of dogs are now derived from these suspect litters.

It would be so nice to have a conclusion so that everyone can move forwards in confidence.

its very 'suspect' ...i cannot understand why they do not want to clear their kennel name.....i know i would! odd

admin · 08/09/2011, 12h08

Citation:

Envoyé par Priska182

So, if a dog is potentially a mix you don't post on wolfdog advertisement for possible litter from this suspect dog right?

It is what we a planning to do. At the moment there are some "suspected" litters on the list (for example Galiba offsprings).

I was hoping that the problem is solved or any steps have breed taken to clarify it.

Citation:

Envoyé par yukidomari

What about a special tag 'under investigation' or so?

We were thinking about it - but it can cause much bigger protests of the breeders using "suspected" dogs than removing the litters.

Hanka · 08/09/2011, 13h08

I see, you write about my pups. What is "suspected" on Galiba?

admin · 08/09/2011, 13h22

I was not writing about your puppies. Anyway not only....

Citation:

Envoyé par Hanka

What is "suspected" on Galiba?

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...02345&langid=1

There are more breeders writing - also here on forum - that the Galiba offsprings look more like Saarloos-alike (for example: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9708). And the French case of the red Wolfdogs seems to be a proof for it.

And the fear of the Crying Wolf breeder of making the DNA tests shows that there is really something wrong going on there.

Hanka · 08/09/2011, 13h23

I know all this thread, I read it .....
But what is "suspeced" on him?

whitefang · 08/09/2011, 15h09

Citation:

Envoyé par hanninadina

Sorry, here the pic from the german wolf pup - in red ...

with a BLACK nose - not brown or lever! That is the difference as "Jennin Lauma" wrote! It is simply genetic, but some breeders seem not to know about this...

admin · 08/09/2011, 15h44

Citation:

Envoyé par Hanka

But what is "suspeced" on him?

The untypical red colours (but also atypical masks) which appear by his puppies can be advice that he he is not purebreed CsW. The DNA test of the red Wolfdogs were done in France so it is proven that the red puppies are sired by son of Galiba. Additoonally we all sa the photos of the red Saarloos living by Crying Wolf.
So the next step is the suggestion that the problem comes from Galiba and Crying Wolf kennel.

Because the breeder reject the possibility to make the DNA tests by Galiba and other "suspected" dogs by this kennel all we can do is to take "under investigation" all dogs coming from Crying wolf and related to the "suspected" dogs.

Till the case will be cleared and the DNA tests will be done...

Shadowlands · 08/09/2011, 17h18

So does that include all dogs coming from the litter mates of Galiba too?

19/07/2011, 16h14	#245
saschia Member Date d'inscription: September 2003 Localisation: Bratislava Messages: 936	Vicky, Tambury was quite dark, you are right, but that was red with a lot of black in it too. The saarloos red is without black and the nose is red/liver which is the best showing that something is very wrong. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

20/07/2011, 22h37	#247
Jennin Lauma Junior Member Date d'inscription: October 2010 Localisation: Finland Messages: 66	Vicky & Christian; The animals you referred to are not genetically the same kind of "red" as the Saarloos. The animals in the pics you linked have pheomelanin red, and Christian, the puppy could be described as more "pheomelanistic" than average European wolves, -just like the Finnish/Russian "yellow" wolves I showed you. The Saarloos "red" is not pheomelanin at all, but eumelanin (normally black) switched to brown. It is genetically exactly the same as the brown labrador, but in Saarloos it is just combined with the agouti coloring. When the dog has this genotype bb for brown eumelanin, then ALL the black pigment in the animal turns brown. -Not just the hair, but skin too! And you can clearly see that the animals in your pictures have BLACK nose & lips etc. They cannot be genetically bb (brown) like the forrest brown Saarloos and the dog born into Lorry's litter. I recommend you go back in this topic and find my previous posts where I allready explained this. And I might even have shared some photos of the "pheomelanistic" FinnoRussian wolves. (Edit) I helped you out and looked it up for you. Here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=34 __________________ -Jenni- http://jenninlauma.weebly.com Dernière modification par Jennin Lauma ; 20/07/2011 à 22h43 Motif: Link added

08/09/2011, 02h00	#248
admin Moderator Date d'inscription: September 2004 Messages: 583	Any news about mixes by Crying Wolf? Do you have any news about solving of the problem of the possible Saarloos mixes by Crying Wolf? I received several litter advertising where breeders use the suspected lines (similar to the "red" lines from France - http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18510). What is strange form me that on the list are also breeders from the origin countries.... Anyway we have our doubts if we should advertise the litters here on Wolfdog.org till the story will be finally solved. Nobody of us want to be responsible for the situation where puppy buyers will get a mixed breed puppy with the "help" of Wolfdog.org.

08/09/2011, 02h36	#250
Priska182 Canadian Member Date d'inscription: January 2008 Localisation: Montréal Messages: 423	So, if a dog is potentially a mix you don't post on wolfdog advertisement for possible litter from this suspect dog right? __________________ Stéphanie www.inugami.ca

19/07/2011, 16h08	#244
Vicky Guest Messages: n/a	Thanks for the clarification. I figured there had to be something to it that I was missing! It's really hard when all you have to go on are photos.

08/09/2011, 02h04	#249
admin Moderator Date d'inscription: September 2004 Messages: 583	Are there any news on this topic? Any DNA tests?

08/09/2011, 04h05	#251
yukidomari Moderator Date d'inscription: March 2010 Localisation: Los Angeles CA Messages: 847	What about a special tag 'under investigation' or so? i agree it's a tricky situation! i'm disappointed to learn from reading other language forums that the origin kennel Crying Wolf is not cooperating with DNA requests.

08/09/2011, 08h25	#252
Shadowlands Junior Member Date d'inscription: November 2009 Localisation: Vidin Messages: 391	Like Yukidomari, I am upset that they are not carrying out DNA tests - simple, inexpensive and would put everyone at ease (or let everyone know what is going on - perhaps this is the problem?) Until they carry out these simple tests, there is a big question mark hanging over the breed as a lot of dogs are now derived from these suspect litters. It would be so nice to have a conclusion so that everyone can move forwards in confidence.

08/09/2011, 13h08	#255
Hanka Senior Member Date d'inscription: November 2003 Localisation: Kadaň Messages: 1 622	I see, you write about my pups. What is "suspected" on Galiba?

08/09/2011, 13h23	#257
Hanka Senior Member Date d'inscription: November 2003 Localisation: Kadaň Messages: 1 622	I know all this thread, I read it ..... But what is "suspeced" on him?

08/09/2011, 17h18	#260
Shadowlands Junior Member Date d'inscription: November 2009 Localisation: Vidin Messages: 391	So does that include all dogs coming from the litter mates of Galiba too?