Italian bonitations

[saschia]

Zitat von woland77

All people with brain know than character bonitation codes (all bonitation) are empty and totally useless, and this is clear on the result about a character selection that are stop at same point!

Sorry, woland, I cannot agree with you here... It is true that the test is not perfect, and that even if the code would really reflect the character of the stud it still does not say what is genetic and what is due to upbringing and training, but still, if I like a dog and it's code is Ob, I really think before using it (and I did, but only after consulting with the judge who bonitated it, and considering the character of the rest of the dog's family which I know).

The character test as used today is simple enough and doesn't take so much time, and it still tells us at least something about the dog's character.

[martiou07]

Zitat von saschia

The character test as used today is simple enough and doesn't take so much time, and it still tells us at least something about the dog's character.

I am completely agreement, that is Monika Soukupova for my female (Od) where Daiva Rimaityte for my male (Of), I am completely agreement with the judgement of the test of character. The test of character of the bonitation is completely adapted!!!

[Nebulosa]

Zitat von woland77

a few real work dog...people ever talk about work breed, i'm agree but with this selection CZW never will be a real work dog...

Its depend what you call working, all my dogs are working dogs because I use then for work in many ways, but still I never had pass in a working test with then, because in 2 years we had only 2 working tests in my state, and I was not here for make my dogs pass when it happened, so I have no way to proof it officially.
I have 3 wolfdogs comes from 3 very different breeders, and all from very diferent lines, and I can assure you that my 3 dogs are amazing working dogs, in truth, one of the most versatile breed I ever meet in my life!
I'm not talking here about sports, where you can even make a fake title of IPO making the test in your own garden, or training the dog for bite the glove nicelly, maybe making the dog bite their "own glove" or make defence with their "own helpler" I'm talking here about WORKIG, it means that if my dogs failed, probably I will pay this fail with my life.
I had some oportunities to see my wolfdogs in action, and it was simply amazing, I saw VERY equilibrate dogs, which know how to react, and have body strong enough and able to do what they need.
CzW is a real working dog, but don't wait of him a nice sport dog, so, two different things.

Character test of bonitation, Slovak, Czech, independent of where it is, only select the extreme cases, and its already ok, better than nothing.

[Rona]

Zitat von Nebulosa

I had some oportunities to see my wolfdogs in action, and it was simply amazing, I saw VERY equilibrate dogs, which know how to react, and have body strong enough and able to do what they need.
CzW is a real working dog, but don't wait of him a nice sport dog, so, two different things.

I know what Paula is writing about, and I suppose her wolfdogs belong to the 'elite group' of very few TRULY working CVSs: not for fun, nor for scoring points in competitions or tests, nor for showing off in Youtube, or getting better Ps at bonitations, but in real- life situations where a lot depends on their independent "judgements" and reactions.

I hope one day, when they're older and Paula has more observations she will write more about Jezzi's and Oscar's and Mona (?) amazing behaviour and share with us what she's learnt about the breed from her own experiences.

[Navarre]

Ehm...apart the work of Paula "Croft" of which I'm very curious (hunting crocodiles in the Amazon's River?), I think that bonitace isn't a good test for a normal working dog, used by normal people for rescue, for guard, for sport and as a pet too.

Some years ago in a bonitace a csw take "Oh" (good) from a well known Czech judge; few minutes after the bonitace, this dog attacked and tried to kill his own handler!!!!
I think that a ZTP is far better to evaluate character stability and training capacity (which is very important) of a working dog.

[Rona]

Zitat von Navarre

(hunting crocodiles in the Amazon's River?).

Suzanna, Paula lives in Porto Alegre http://www.bugbog.com/images/maps/brazil-map.jpg

[woland77]

Its depend what you call working, all my dogs are working dogs because I use then for work in many ways, but still I never had pass in a working test with then, because in 2 years we had only 2 working tests in my state, and I was not here for make my dogs pass when it happened, so I have no way to proof it officially.
I have 3 wolfdogs comes from 3 very different breeders, and all from very diferent lines, and I can assure you that my 3 dogs are amazing working dogs, in truth, one of the most versatile breed I ever meet in my life!
I'm not talking here about sports, where you can even make a fake title of IPO making the test in your own garden, or training the dog for bite the glove nicelly, maybe making the dog bite their "own glove" or make defence with their "own helpler" I'm talking here about WORKIG, it means that if my dogs failed, probably I will pay this fail with my life.
I had some oportunities to see my wolfdogs in action, and it was simply amazing, I saw VERY equilibrate dogs, which know how to react, and have body strong enough and able to do what they need.
CzW is a real working dog, but don't wait of him a nice sport dog, so, two different things.

Paula, i don't know your dog's but "amazing working dog" is hard to say on GSD, and other work breed..only a few can named "amazing workin dog"..are dogs than save people on many situation, find drug's and explosive, assistant to police on public event like concert or sport match, assistant blind...
IPO and other titles are nothing if i can't see the dog work with my eyes, to have IPO with electric collar is nothing! I want to see IPO dog's with other dogs, at show, at home, in the city. IPO dog must be IPO dog not only on training camp!! CZW can be, and i say: "MUST BE" a work dog, but now, sorry but i don't agree with you, CZW is a dog with huge potential to become a Work dog, is not now a work dog, is necessary to select and fix good gene's heritage for delete many features of CZW. 90% OF (bonitation code) dogs have although latent and hidden, the mistrust towards the man, and if you work on defense you can see this clear. This is not good for work, rescue dog must trust on man on all condition, also extreme! This is very hard for CZW. Work dog must have only small competitiveness agaist other dog's, CZW have for wolf heritage (and GSD too, of course) high competitiveness with other dog's. CZW work very well with his brain, collaborating with owner, work dog work much more mechanic (but i would like than CZW will work on his style!!).
Czw have big potential like a rescue dog, especially surface rescue research, for his strong body, high resistance and his nose, and especcialy for his capacity to seak for long time comparison other work breed...but many edges of character must be round off, and for this is necessary excelent character selection...

Character test of bonitation, Slovak, Czech, independent of where it is, only select the extreme cases, and its already ok, better than nothing.

I'm agree with you, i'm the first to say in Italy :do bonitation is a duty!! I'm not for breed without nothing, like a many italian people, my consideration is not on this mean!!

[Nebulosa]

Zitat von woland77

Paula, i don't know your dog's but "amazing working dog" is hard to say on GSD, and other work breed..only a few can named "amazing workin dog"..are dogs than save people on many situation, find drug's and explosive, assistant to police on public event like concert or sport match, assistant blind...

My dogs had protect me sometimes in real situations, differentones , in different places, like I would wait of a police dog.
Jezebeth had found 2 kg of drugs in a park when I was training track, I tough about continue in training that and put it specific for drugs, but as far my dogs are pretty unique here and easy to recognized the better choice was don't get involved in this.

CZW can be, and i say: "MUST BE" a work dog, but now, sorry but i don't agree with you, CZW is a dog with huge potential to become a Work dog, is not now a work dog, is necessary to select and fix good gene's heritage for delete many features of CZW.

We need more uniformity in behaviour, but accept that wolfdogs are more intelligent than other breed, and traine then in different way before complain that they're less treinable than other dogbreeds.
The socialization dependance of the breedis not a huge problem, will not interfere in the working ability if the owner make it right.

90% OF (bonitation code) dogs have although latent and hidden, the mistrust towards the man, and if you work on defense you can see this clear. This is not good for work, rescue dog must trust on man on all condition, also extreme! This is very hard for CZW.

Bonitation only show the extremes, I really don't care for the bonitation codes, as I can't truth then anymore, the character test only show extreme cases, we can't believe in the P results anymore, as we can't believe in the faults that are (not) wroted in the final results, in truth, we nor even can believe in the high meassurement.
Bonitation is a nice test, nice idea, that woud work perfectly if people had done it seriously, but it don't happen.

because different
Work dog must have only small competitiveness agaist other dog's, CZW have for wolf heritage (and GSD too, of course) high competitiveness with other dog's. CZW work very well with his brain, collaborating with owner, work dog work much more mechanic (but i would like than CZW will work on his style!!).

Depending a lot of what kind of work you want, depending also of who will use the dog, somepeople really enjoyed the CzW, because of his independence and intelligence, that can be able to avoid huge problems for the dog and for the owner in the work.

Czw have big potential like a rescue dog, especially surface rescue research, for his strong body, high resistance and his nose, and especcialy for his capacity to seak for long time comparison other work breed...but many edges of character must be round off, and for this is necessary excelent character selection...

By the way its truth, but the character of CzW is very dependant of socialization, so it turn even difficult to evaluate the character of hole dogs in the breeding, and arrive to a secure final conclusion.
We also need to remember that, a naturally strong charactered CzW, with strong nerves, isn't a dog for everybody and i'm talking here even about experienced owners, principally by the fact that the dominance counts a lot for this breed.

Zitat von Navarre

Ehm...apart the work of Paula "Croft" of which I'm very curious (hunting crocodiles in the Amazon's River?)

I would be cool
Unhaply where I live the violence is high, the laws don't work and we can say that we almost have no police ( or do you think they will work efetivelly, risking their lives for 200 Euros/month?), it can seems stupid, but its pretty common we count how many tchieves/bandits/perverts our dogs had already "eat", even the police agree in we substitue then for the dogs.

For you had an idea, my rottweiler died with 6 in her account ( and 7 years old), Oskar in 2 years already have 3.

[woland77]

Zitat von saschia

Sorry, woland, I cannot agree with you here... It is true that the test is not perfect, and that even if the code would really reflect the character of the stud it still does not say what is genetic and what is due to upbringing and training, but still, if I like a dog and it's code is Ob, I really think before using it (and I did, but only after consulting with the judge who bonitated it, and considering the character of the rest of the dog's family which I know).

I can agree with you Saschia, Ob is a extreme code, surely we can't say than Ob dog maybe is balanced or good natured but, when we have a Of dog (optimistic, weel balanced), can be very very different than other Of dog. Of code i think is the code for the dog's with maximum attitude to work. Normally if you select for generation Of code dog's, you will establish optimal genetic heritage for work dog...We know this is not realy on Czw!

The character test as used today is simple enough and doesn't take so much time, and it still tells us at least something about the dog's character.

I agree, tell us somethings about the dog...but somethinghs about phenotype..If you want the code have mean in terms of selection, genetic and improvement attitude (this last the most importanto to create a "memory of breed") must be much better...with this thinks i've said bonitation code is empty...