Typical temperament of CsWs

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by wolfin

if typical wolfdog is problem- buy a labrador - york - poodle or others breed. Wolfdog NOT mas be easy and calm and nice doggy from alls people

But I think we both agree, that a life stock guarding dog like an Owtscharka is bred for totally different work than a wolfdog and therefor needs very different skills for work in itself. And in times of dangerous dog lists one should maybe think a little bit about the different circumstances in life. They simply don´t live in the border corridor any longer to prevent people to leave the country. But live in the middle of everything and live with their families.
Apart from that I start to think the problem here is a language one.
And still I don´t know what is untypical about this one dog.

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

But I think we both agree, that a life stock guarding dog like an Owtscharka is bred for totally different work than a wolfdog and therefor needs very different skills for work in itself. And in times of dangerous dog lists one should maybe think a little bit about the different circumstances in life. They simply don´t live in the border corridor any longer to prevent people to leave the country. But live in the middle of everything and live with their families.
Apart from that I start to think the problem here is a language one.
And still I don´t know what is untypical about this one dog.

Atypical, because he is a nice,kind, handable dog. Everybody could touch him, didn't show agressivity and even could be together with other males.
In Nitra we could be together with the same "pack" with Gisu, Gandalf and Emir, 3 adult males without any problem. They don't want to kill each other. For me it doesn't mean that they are atypical csw's but mean they are clear minded, stabil , well socialized dogs with good caracter .
And this kind of caracter is not the opposit what is written in the standard , and I couldn't see the connection this behaviour and working ability.
I realy don't think that the agressiv, dominant dogs would be wished nowadays.


Edit

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Edit / jasmine:

I realy don't think that the aggressiv, dominant dogs would be wished nowadays.

Yeah, that´s right - it´s exactly my opinion also !

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by jasmine

Atypical, because he is a nice,kind, handable dog. Everybody could touch him, didn't show agressivity and even could be together with other males.
In Nitra we could be together with the same "pack" with Gisu, Gandalf and Emir, 3 adult males without any problem. They don't want to kill each other. For me it doesn't mean that they are atypical csw's but mean they are clear minded, stabil , well socialized dogs with good caracter .

So everybody whos male dogs are growling on other males have not stable, bad socialized, bad minded dogs with bad character?
Because "typical CzW male loves to play and kiss other males"....?

So we have breed full of atypical dogs.... and you are the only one with the perfect animals...

Originally Posted by jasmine

I realy don't think that the agressiv, dominant dogs would be wished nowadays.

Sorry but I get allergic when I read such words....

"Aggressiv", "dominant" - what kind of breed do you want to have? Sofa dog? With lack of basic pack bahaviour? Dogs with character of a sheep?
Upps... even sheeps are pretty agressiv... And rams are VERY dominant.
As "agressiv" you can describe poodles, and yorkshire terriers (they are real beasts!). French bulldogs - killers! Did you saw how angry can be chihuahua male? When he meets another male? Sorry, but you are attacking dogs of other owners only because they behave like NORMAL DOGS!!!

10 years ago there was the same situation in Germany - Pavel and many other people will confirm it... It was the time when there were much more Saarloos Wolfdogs in Germany and CzW first started to won the publicity...
Saarloos owners attacked our breed EXACTLY with the same words: that our breed should die out because it is made of aggressive dogs. Because Saarlooos never fight with each other. They love each other - even adult males. There are no 'dominancy' against people - never are agressive against other dogs. The preffer to run away if something happend. That "we" (society) do not need "agressive" dogs like CzW.

They said EXACTLY the same.

Please - Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs ARE and SHOULD be as written in the breed standard. Please stop to make any advertising for not typical behaviour. Yes, some dogs are different - it is not a problem. But they have unusual character. And dogs like this for sure are not something which other breeders should follow.

If you keep typical character of CzW for "too agressiv", "too active" or "too self-confident" maybe it is the time to change the breed. Saarloos Wolfhounds are very nice dogs, which look similar to CzW. Such character is welcome there... And nobody will care if it will be not possible to make anything serious with the dogs...

[jasmine]

[quote=Margo;339786]So everybody whos male dogs are growling on other males have not stable, bad socialized, bad minded dogs with bad character?
Because "typical CzW male loves to play and kiss other males"....?

So we have breed full of atypical dogs.... and you are the only one with the perfect animals...



Have I wrote these ??? Please show me where !!!
And don't turn out my words. We all know what I was talking about!

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by jasmine

I realy don't think that the agressiv, dominant dogs would be wished nowadays.

One more question: if you believe in your words why did you use Carr, Juri, Geri? All of them are "dominant" dogs (I personally call them "normal"). Why you made litters with Hitt, Borko, Koro and Ali - they are "dominant" even compared to other "dominant" CzW males?

Why you use males which you describe as not normal? And "not needed"?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Margo

One more question: if you believe in your words why did you use Juri,

Sorry again, as I know Juri very well and you obviously find his character within the standard, he is not dominant, he is selfconfident and showing body signals of dominance in special situation towards other dogs.

And after a little bit of training and keeping rules he is absolutely no problem with other dogs but stays calm, does he now no longer fit the standard?
When he meets his mother or grandmother he is showing strong submissive behaviour is he now not within the standard anylonger?

Cäsar that you used for breeding did show no dominant behaviour at all and instead shy behaviour on several occasions, did you breed with a non-standard dog? Or did you get to know these dogs well enough to know that their behaviour was due to special situations?

And still, what is the problem with the special dog the discussion started about? How well do you know him?

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry again, as I know Juri very well and you obviously find his character within the standard, he is not dominant, he is selfconfident and showing body signals of dominance in special situation towards other dogs.

And after a little bit of training and keeping rules he is absolutely no problem with other dogs but stays calm, does he now no longer fit the standard?
When he meets his mother or grandmother he is showing strong submissive behaviour is he now not within the standard anylonger?

Cäsar that you used for breeding did show no dominant behaviour at all and instead shy behaviour on several occasions, did you breed with a non-standard dog? Or did you get to know these dogs well enough to know that their behaviour was due to special situations?

And still, what is the problem with the special dog the discussion started about? How well do you know him?

Ina,

she is Margo.......she knows everything, every dogs and of course she has always the answers.........
For me Juri is a good caractered dog, not extra dominant and absolutly handable........Casar..hmmm..I don't want to write my oppinion about his caracter here...only one, he is everything but not selfconfident.
Borko....hehehe..we travelled together several times, he was my friends's dog, so maybe I know him more than you, Margo.......

And when a dog is well socialized for me not equal that would have saarloose caracter.............anyway Margo, how many saarloose you have????????

[CDaniela]

I spoke many times with Mr. Hartl about the beginnings of a cross breed of the dog's natures. Crossing the wolf and the dog is not easy ... involvement could not be submissive dogs. Wolf- female needed a dominant dog. I think that this - the original genes are present in nature csv, still clearly visible. Working with this dog is complicated .... like to get involved in their breeding dogs quiet and easy to use. But my heart belongs to a dominant dog

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by jasmine

For me Juri is a good caractered dog, not extra dominant and absolutly handable........

I agree with your words. But you must also agree that he is not a dog which will hug other males. And he is also not a dog who on dog show is looking hollow in the air or counting butterlies flying outside the window.

Originally Posted by jasmine

Casar..hmmm..I don't want to write my oppinion about his caracter here...only one, he is everything but not selfconfident...

Hmmm...if Casar is not selfconfident than how you will can your dogs?

Originally Posted by jasmine

Borko....hehehe..we travelled together several times, he was my friends's dog, so maybe I know him more than you, Margo.......

Yes, yes. He was sweet dog playing with cats and chickens, kissing other males, of course he was never growling. He was also inviting all people to his house... And slow and lazy like pekinesse....

But oppps - we are talking about Borko Kollarov dvor... right?

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by Margo

I agree with your words. But you must also agree that he is not a dog which will hug other males. And he is also not a dog who on dog show is looking hollow in the air or counting butterlies flying outside the window.



Hmmm...if Casar is not selfconfident than how you will can your dogs?



Yes, yes. He was sweet dog playing with cats and chickens, kissing other males, of course he was never growling. He was also inviting all people to his house... And slow and lazy like pekinesse....

But oppps - we are talking about Borko Kollarov dvor... right?

???????? Have you seen Gisu to give kissess to other males? Or did I wrote that Gisu,Gandalf and Emir kissess each other??????????????????????
I wrote they didn't want to kill each other...I think it is not the same things !
Slow and lazy like an old pekingese????? ohhhhh so where were the eyes' of the judges when put him in the firts place several times...several times!!!!

And please don't write about Casar to us: many of us know him very well !!!!!!

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by Margo

Yes, yes. He was sweet dog playing with cats and chickens, kissing other males, of course he was never growling. He was also inviting all people to his house... And slow and lazy like pekinesse....

But oppps - we are talking about Borko Kollarov dvor... right?

And ooopsz: beside of Borko were chickens and also cats.....and he was never agressive with foreigners.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry again, as I know Juri very well and you obviously find his character within the standard, he is not dominant, he is selfconfident and showing body signals of dominance in special situation towards other dogs.

Why for you a NORMAL dog is something wrong?!?!? Please READ IT ONE MORE TIME!!!

Margo: One more question: if you believe in your words why did you use Carr, Juri, Geri? All of them are "dominant" dogs (I personally call them "normal").
According to this what Edith wrote - a normal dog (for her) is dog which behaves like CASTRATE. Or Saarloos....
Juri, Carr and Geri are not like this. They are NORMAL dogs according the breed standard for CzW and according the norms given for normal dogs. But because of it they DO NOT FIT to Edith's expectations!

Sorry, but what you can not change is the reality. Everybody knows Juri or Carr and everybody knows Gisotsu or Yam, and they are TOTALLY different dogs.

And after a little bit of training and keeping rules he is absolutely no problem with other dogs but stays calm, does he now no longer fit the standard?
When he meets his mother or grandmother he is showing strong submissive behaviour is he now not within the standard anylonger?

Sorry, but I do not understand your problem... I know Juri good enough. I like his character very much and he is typical male with stable character. Very friendly one. Like his father.
Why is it wrong according to you? Is is wrong that he do not act like dummy with low batteries?

Cäsar that you used for breeding did show no dominant behaviour at all and instead shy behaviour on several occasions, did you breed with a non-standard dog? Or did you get to know these dogs well enough to know that their behaviour was due to special situations?

Yes, I saw him may times. Also in private. I know that Jorg had no time to socialize him and it is sometimes still visible. But I also know his real character - really nice animal. And thanks to his active, friendly but still typical CzW characters his puppies won a lot of popularity, and many, many dog shows... They are really easy to handle.

But you know - what I really dont like are the ettiquetes put on dogs without any reason... I remember the time when people called Grey Wolf a extremly agressive dog - ONLY because he was trained as watch dog (he was working as security dog). And what? His offsprings have great characters (look Farouk). Many called Carr and "agressive" dog because since he has female at home he started to be dominant against some males. And what? He is father of dogs which have one of the best characters by CzW. The same is with being shy - what is SHY dog? Shy dog is a dog which had GOOD socialization but still he is trying to escape. Believe me - you can have a Wolfdog with the most perfect character but iof you not not socilize it it will become "shy". Even is the genes are simply perfect....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Obviouly I cannot make myself understandable.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Why for you a NORMAL dog is something wrong?!?!? Please READ IT ONE MORE TIME!!!

Margo: One more question: if you believe in your words why did you use Carr, Juri, Geri? All of them are "dominant" dogs (I personally call them "normal").
According to this what Edith wrote - a normal dog (for her) is dog which behaves like CASTRATE. Or Saarloos....
Juri, Carr and Geri are not like this. They are NORMAL dogs according the breed standard for CzW and according the norms given for normal dogs. But because of it they DO NOT FIT to Edith's expectations!

scientifically seen the term dominant is wrongly used at this place. As it was used to differ calm behaviour from the ideal character and to explain what is wrong of one special dog I tried and still try to varify.
To be honest I think the problems here occure because we are all talking here in a foreign language.
Obviously these dogs did fit Edits expectations like they did fit yours or both of you wouldn´t have used them.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Sorry, but what you can not change is the reality. Everybody knows Juri or Carr and everybody knows Gisotsu or Yam, and they are TOTALLY different dogs.

That is my problem and the reason why I asked several times: I DON`T know both dogs, at least not in a way that I could judge them according to their behaviour.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Sorry, but I do not understand your problem... I know Juri good enough. I like his character very much and he is typical male with stable character. Very friendly one. Like his father.
Why is it wrong according to you? Is is wrong that he do not act like dummy with low batteries?



Yes, I saw him may times. Also in private. I know that Jorg had no time to socialize him and it is sometimes still visible. But I also know his real character - really nice animal. And thanks to his active, friendly but still typical CzW characters his puppies won a lot of popularity, and many, many dog shows... They are really easy to handle.

I was ironic I don´t have a problem with both dogs, especially not with Juri.

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

But you know - what I really dont like are the ettiquetes put on dogs without any reason... I remember the time when people called Grey Wolf a extremly agressive dog - ONLY because he was trained as watch dog (he was working as security dog). And what? His offsprings have great characters (look Farouk). Many called Carr and "agressive" dog because since he has female at home he started to be dominant against some males. And what? He is father of dogs which have one of the best characters by CzW. The same is with being shy - what is SHY dog? Shy dog is a dog which had GOOD socialization but still he is trying to escape. Believe me - you can have a Wolfdog with the most perfect character but iof you not not socilize it it will become "shy". Even is the genes are simply perfect....

Well, that is a general problem, many people talk a lot about many dogs but only very few can really judge behaviour, that again is why I asked and still got no answer.
We have close contact not only to Juri but to several dogs out of this litter all have an extremly good charakter but there are people that should have known better that called them hyperaktiv - the new fashionable term, used on every dog behaving just normal for a typical CSW. Giving clear signals they behave very well and - sorry - very calm on leash and perfectly normal according to the standard.

So if somebody tells me about horrible charakters of dogs I ask till I know why they think it is horrible and mostly my opinion is different.

[elf]

Reading quick through posts it seems you all, breeders, make a strong link between a dog character and the way to breed it, like if character transmission was strong as suggested in J. Jedlička paper, but from the paper "The genetic contribution to canine personality" this is really not the case: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...5&postcount=47

[elf]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

CzWs are MUCH MORE inteligent...

It's interesting as not necessarily true and often (always) told by CSV people, the word 'intelligent' is so problematic, you may know the wolves -as I guess we would all qualify as so 'intelligent'- are performing less better than dogs to many tests, problem of 'fitting' in an environment, and regarding this point I'm sure the CSV would not overcome. Sure each tests is 'oriented', but anyway interesting enough to keep in mind.