Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

jmvdwiel · 25-09-2011, 14:41

I also think that it is possibly to find out if dog are related as halfbrother/sister but only by a qualified geneticus, and I think you need to have more siblings that just 2.
Because there is an possibility that 2 siblings from the same litter share no genes with each other , ofcourse they have half of their dna form the father and the other half from the mother.

there is an other thing which makes the comparison difficult and that is that te csw is inbreeded this means that probably my dogs shares genes with not close unrelated dogs also... that makes the comparison difficult.

I get the impression that none of the involved breeders wants to get an answer to this matter, maybe more that one breeder made a mistake? or maybe this red was in the breed already for a long period? all of this can only be solved by comparing a lot of DNA samples..... the question is... who is going to pay for it? and who wants to do the comparison?
And what if the result is not what you wanted?

Morian · 25-09-2011, 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel

who is going to pay for it? and who wants to do the comparison?

some people can help including me for example. i think all people really interested in the breed want to do it.

FraFairy · 28-09-2011, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morian

some people can help including me for example. i think all people really interested in the breed want to do it.

Surely those who care about the race will be willing to do so, the problem remains for those who only see us on the farm interests and personal gain, they will never be willing to collaborate?
I think not ..
One step could be to store the DNA of each animal in the herd, but not by making the collection privately, but by the competent authorities, who go on the farm and take samples and then deposit them ...
But it would never be possible?
I talk about breeding just because you come from where most of the puppies.
Should become a necessary and obligatory rule.
Unfortunately only a beautiful dream.

Juri Z.P. · 28-09-2011, 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morian

some people can help including me for example. i think all people really interested in the breed want to do it.

Shadow

Quote:

YOU can help, as well as anyone else, including me for example. I think all people being honestly interested in the breed want to do it.
.

Is not for a person here, but for all,
not want, fact!
Those who mix-breed or don't help just because of their pride or ego, they abolish not only the CLC and help the frauds, but also all pedigrees including all data!

In addition they're devastating the future of real CLC including health control etc....

All those who choose their ego over their dogs and therefore support those frauds and intrigues, they've lost authenticity and credibility - the DOGS are the central point

I do not understand why it seems impossible to bring up facts to get things straight - it just one little step bringing people to be honest - is it really too much regarding your dogs, our breed CLC?

It's all about making money - so it seems to me - and I'm sorry but I can not and do not believe other explanations anymore ... such a pity ...

Many people want to help, make a small step officially DNA - a big step for all CLC,
if they really love this CLC with your own history and personality!

thanks ALL!

best Regards Mariana

*Satu · 28-09-2011, 15:56

If the dog's ID marking is changed to the DNA test does not help the case at all.

Juri Z.P. · 28-09-2011, 17:01

only with officials Representations - DNA Test, - YES - otherwise worthless - for all Dog!

Shadowlands · 25-09-2011, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel

who is going to pay for it? and who wants to do the comparison?
And what if the result is not what you wanted?

Split between all the people who want to be involved, the cost will be relatively small. What price do you put on peace of mind, on the ability to move forwards and not be worrying about the long lasting effects of this 'mistake'?

A final, official result is all that true guardians of the breed want - whatever that result is.

elf · 27-09-2011, 14:39

What about using the B-Locus test on some dogs ? http://www.genomia.cz/en/test/locus-b-dog/

...or on many CSV.
e.g., Daniela can you perform this test for low extra cost while checking for DM if the owner ask for it ?

elf · 28-09-2011, 05:58

Related question, I read the CSV is told to be BB, the arguments were:

1. No red CSV born (known...)
2. GSD used are not b carrier

About point 2., what is the range of certainty of this affirmation ?

On the original paper describing the b mutation (2002 Schmutz, S.M., Berryere, T.G., Goldfinch, A.D. : TYRP1 and MC1R genotypes and their effects on coat color in dogs Mammalian Genome 13:380-387, 2002. Pubmed reference: 12140685), there is an interesting part where a dog (Grackle), carrier of b, had her closest brown ancestor is six generations back.
Have we enough information on the GSD used in the breed foundation to go against such exemple ?

"Historical perspective on the brown mutations. The German
Longhair and Large Munsterlander were considered a single
breed until 1909, at which time the breed divided, based on
brown versus black coat color. The breeders were disconcerted
that the brown German Longhair bred true for coat color, but
the black dogs occasionally had brown pups. It is not sur-
prising that the recessive brown could be maintained in black
dogs for many generations. Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back. The Large Munsterlander, Cora, carries one
copy of the premature stop codon in TYRP1, and she has had
brown pups in the past.
Since more than a single DNA sequence variant associated
with brown was found in some breeds (Labrador Retriever,
Large Munsterlander, Brittany Spaniel, Field Spaniel, Aus-
tralian Shepherd, German Shorthaired Pointer, Vizsla, Pu-
delpointer, Gri€on, German Wirehaired Pointer), these
mutations likely arose prior to the time of breed registry ori-
gins in the late 1800s. Furthermore, these three mutations
occur in longhaired, shorthaired, and wirehaired breeds, a
®nding which further predates these breed origins to the 1600,
or 1700s (Schmutz 1992)."

admin · 28-09-2011, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

On the original paper describing the b mutation (2002 Schmutz, S.M., Berryere, T.G., Goldfinch, A.D. : TYRP1 and MC1R genotypes and their effects on coat color in dogs Mammalian Genome 13:380-387, 2002. Pubmed reference: 12140685), there is an interesting part where a dog (Grackle), carrier of b, had her closest brown ancestor is six generations back.
Have we enough information on the GSD used in the breed foundation to go against such exemple ?

I was informed that for sure there was not even one "red nose" CsW born.

There are also no information about any red GsD used for making our breed - and we must remember that for CsW the founders used pure well documentated Shepherds.

So for about 40 years there were no red dogs born. Good enough to say that 'b' do not appear by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. So for Sibir and Thalia the DNA test of the coat colour can give already a good proof that they are not purebreed.

28-09-2011, 15:56	#5
*Satu Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 194	If the dog's ID marking is changed to the DNA test does not help the case at all. Last edited by Satu; 28-09-2011 at 15:58.*

27-09-2011, 14:39	#8
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	What about using the B-Locus test on some dogs ? http://www.genomia.cz/en/test/locus-b-dog/ ...or on many CSV. e.g., Daniela can you perform this test for low extra cost while checking for DM if the owner ask for it ? __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html Last edited by elf; 27-09-2011 at 14:49.

28-09-2011, 05:58	#9
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Related question, I read the CSV is told to be BB, the arguments were: 1. No red CSV born (known...) 2. GSD used are not b carrier About point 2., what is the range of certainty of this affirmation ? On the original paper describing the b mutation (2002 Schmutz, S.M., Berryere, T.G., Goldfinch, A.D. : TYRP1 and MC1R genotypes and their effects on coat color in dogs Mammalian Genome 13:380-387, 2002. Pubmed reference: 12140685), there is an interesting part where a dog (Grackle), carrier of b, had her closest brown ancestor is six generations back. Have we enough information on the GSD used in the breed foundation to go against such exemple ? "Historical perspective on the brown mutations. The German Longhair and Large Munsterlander were considered a single breed until 1909, at which time the breed divided, based on brown versus black coat color. The breeders were disconcerted that the brown German Longhair bred true for coat color, but the black dogs occasionally had brown pups. It is not sur- prising that the recessive brown could be maintained in black dogs for many generations. Grackle, who carries one copy of the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white, and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen- erations back. The Large Munsterlander, Cora, carries one copy of the premature stop codon in TYRP1, and she has had brown pups in the past. Since more than a single DNA sequence variant associated with brown was found in some breeds (Labrador Retriever, Large Munsterlander, Brittany Spaniel, Field Spaniel, Aus- tralian Shepherd, German Shorthaired Pointer, Vizsla, Pu- delpointer, Gri€on, German Wirehaired Pointer), these mutations likely arose prior to the time of breed registry ori- gins in the late 1800s. Furthermore, these three mutations occur in longhaired, shorthaired, and wirehaired breeds, a ®nding which further predates these breed origins to the 1600, or 1700s (Schmutz 1992)." __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html Last edited by elf; 28-09-2011 at 06:01.

25-09-2011, 14:41	#1
jmvdwiel Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,061	I also think that it is possibly to find out if dog are related as halfbrother/sister but only by a qualified geneticus, and I think you need to have more siblings that just 2. Because there is an possibility that 2 siblings from the same litter share no genes with each other , ofcourse they have half of their dna form the father and the other half from the mother. there is an other thing which makes the comparison difficult and that is that te csw is inbreeded this means that probably my dogs shares genes with not close unrelated dogs also... that makes the comparison difficult. I get the impression that none of the involved breeders wants to get an answer to this matter, maybe more that one breeder made a mistake? or maybe this red was in the breed already for a long period? all of this can only be solved by comparing a lot of DNA samples..... the question is... who is going to pay for it? and who wants to do the comparison? And what if the result is not what you wanted?

28-09-2011, 17:01	#6
Juri Z.P. Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 146	only with officials Representations - DNA Test, - YES - otherwise worthless - for all Dog!